Info Wars - Page 3 - OzChess

**Firegoat7** · 01-29-2008, 12:40 AM

Hi Axiom,

Axiom, you know the truth. It is abundantly clear that censorship for the sake of censorship is completely against the spirit of the virtual revolution. Move on mate. You are far too intelligent, interesting and wise to be fighting this old fight over and over again. Say goodbye and don't look back. There are new worlds seeking creation that are calling your name. The space has been made, now speak YOUR mind freely and voice your concerns to the free world.

cheers Fg7

**Axiom** · 01-29-2008, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Hi Axiom,

Axiom, you know the truth. It is abundantly clear that censorship for the sake of censorship is completely against the spirit of the virtual revolution. Move on mate. You are far too intelligent, interesting and wise to be fighting this old fight over and over again. Say goodbye and don't look back. There are new worlds seeking creation that are calling your name. The space has been made, now speak YOUR mind freely and voice your concerns to the free world.

cheers Fg7

thankyou fg,

yes, it really is beyond absurd.
i simply tried to engage them in discussion about the need / rationale for such a rule ....... and they simply dodge what im saying,never addressing the point......its almost just wilfull denial..extraordinary.....its quite a comical dialogue for anyone very bored !

they say the way to catch a dictator is to make them act like one !

**MOZ** · 01-29-2008, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Axiom

thankyou fg,

yes, it really is beyond absurd.
i simply tried to engage them in discussion about the need / rationale for such a rule ....... and they simply dodge what im saying,never addressing the point......its almost just wilfull denial..extraordinary.....its quite a comical dialogue for anyone very bored !

they say the way to catch a dictator is to make them act like one !

Ax
fg7's advice was very cogent.

So, now, looking forward.....post here mate. It has much the same bunch of readers anyway so you lose nothing in coverage of the material you want to raise in profile.
To maximise your readership be alert to the fact that lurkers here (that is, those who have not logged on) cannot read our shoutbox.

regards
MOZ*

**Iconoclast** · 01-29-2008, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom

silence on this is their biggest ally.

Who is "they?" It sounds conspiritorial. But I do not believe that a world wide conspiracy of this type is possible. However, I agree with you that the media is a moderately controlling force, for moderately controlling governments, brought off by moderately controlling corporations. But it is not coordinated.

... and it makes one feel good to do good , rather than passively accept 'evil' (for want of a better word)

Agreed !!

But back to the "idea" that maybe it does not matter. Personally I feel it does. Personally I don't know that it matters. For sure, there are many examples of states losing their free media and descending into a tyrannical abyss: Nazi Germany, Cambodia et al. However, there are many more states where the media is less than free, yet the society and its people live life as happy as a pigs in mud: USA, South Africa, Itali, Singapore et al.

So, I do not know that a free media is all that important. Perhaps what is more important is the mentality of the groups who control the media. I am using the weak and hackneyed argument that, guns do not kill, people kill.

Care to comment?
BTW, remember I am playing the devils advocate to try to look deeper into the way civilisation functions.

**Iconoclast** · 01-29-2008, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by MOZ

... [OZCHESS] has much the same bunch of readers anyway so you lose nothing in coverage of the material you want to raise in profile.

LOL, yes, the lurkers are in plague proportions. We know this from playing some fishing games.

**Just2Good** · 01-30-2008, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom

yes, it really is beyond absurd.
i simply tried to engage them in discussion about the need / rationale for such a rule ....... and they simply dodge what im saying,never addressing the point......its almost just wilfull denial..extraordinary.....its quite a comical dialogue for anyone very bored !

They are drunk with their power Axiom! But enough about them, I want to hear more about these info wars! What's the most important thing I need to know? Who is not what they appear to be?

AO

**Axiom** · 01-31-2008, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Hi,

I woke up to the sound of rain and I thought "Do all chessplayers love that sound?", because I do. For today is an indoor day, perfect for chess.

I too love it ........It never seems to rain long enough ....it makes me think of other parts of the world where it can rain for days non stop ....lucky bastards !

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Nevertheless, this got me thinking about conspiracy theory in general. I for one am quite uncomfortable with it. I don't particularly believe at least 75% of it, but I do acknowledge that sometimes there are basic grains of truth, even if they are heavily distorted. However anything that makes people think about their own human condition and that of others, in our industrial worlds, must be ok, even if it is complete garbage

So I guess, what I am trying to say is this. Can we debunk some of the more 'inventive' claims made in the conspiracy theory threads with hard evidence. And whilst we are at it, could we possibly investigate why some aspects of 'conspiracy theory' appeal to people. I am interested to know if the stories presented by 'conspiracy theory' have a meaningful, or symbolic appeal to some people or, is it just an endless sea of white noise in the age of information overload?

cheers Fg7

my basic premise is this: people are generally simply not well informed enough to even get to the stage of sifting through information in any meaningful accurate way, to determine the value or degree of truth contained therein.

so how are we informed ?
School,University?
Family?
Media?
Friends,Acquaintances ?
Books? (SUFMFAB)

It is my contention ,based on years of study ,including the areas of history,psychology,media and direct observation.
- that as a people we are grossly ill informed. ( some will say "thats obvious ,we all know that", and shrug their shoulders not realising the gravity of this )

how do i conclude this ?

- by establishing that well sourced , corroberated
,credible and important information scarcely gets a mention from the above main info sources(SUFMFAB)

I focus on the media as that is the most powerful and ongoing source generally in people's lives. It is the interface between people and information.
It is generally the way people become informed about the world around them. It has a powerful influence in constructing our consensus reality.

ok, so what are some examples of important information ignored or minimised by media ? (here, im talking about the most pervasive forms of media , call it mass media if you wish)

- the bilderberg group ( note, im not drawing any conclusions about their agenda, simply that this group exists. and as it is a secret meeting of the most powerful people, then i naturally conclude that this is important information)
- humans currently implanted with microchips ( again note , im not drawing any conclusions about the agenda, simply that humans implanted with a microchip is important information)

some years ago the mere mention of these 2 items would condemn you to the ranks of conspiracy theorist nutcase kook. From people very confident in their opinions but hopelessly uninformed.
these 2 items are now undisputedly true........but do your own survey...im constantly surprised at the number of educated(not necassarily,informed) people who still have no knowledge of these facts.

so where does the so called conspiracy theory come in ?
-it comes from people trying to make sense of incredible and important information that they simply do not see aired in mainstream society.
they naturally ask themselves why and how can this be so.

Now ask yourself this , where on tv , radio or newspapers have you seen/heard serious information dissemination or debate on the bilderberg group or current human microchipping ?
Is it because the bilderberg group is simply not news worthy ? ( remember the details of meetings are kept secret and some of the most powerful people in the world attend these group meetings !)
Where are the debates on human microchipping on abc radio or sbs "insight" program for instance?
Is it because its a boring uninteresting un news worthy story ??

The term "conspiracy theorist" is used as a term of ridicule , a perjorative term used to simply dismiss and deny uncomfortable information. It is often used by people who have absolutely no idea about the subject matter , but are ultra confident in their conclusions.It is also a term that lumps serious researchers in with really nutty invisable space beams from planet zelion crowd.

Conspiracy theorist means someone who theorises that certain events involve a conspiracy (ie. a covert plan by 2 or more people) and of course many conspiracies have occured both big and small( it is a term used in law)

Only thorough research can shed light on the degree of truth of particular theories of conspiracy

..and yes it can get quite mind boggling, so i try to stick to the basic premise that we are grossly ill informed , because this is far more tangible and testable. ........this is the starting point , theorising comes later.

**Just2Good** · 01-31-2008, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom

..and yes it can get quite mind boggling, so i try to stick to the basic premise that we are grossly ill informed , because this is far more tangible and testable. ........this is the starting point , theorising comes later.

What does it mean to be grossly misinformed? There is a lot of information out there Axiom, a lot. People have to have closed minds about many things including what information is allowed to be processed by their brain. Simply wading through masses and masses of info, especially stupid info that is wrong or misleading or just worthless, how does having such info help give an advantage over those who are uninformed/ignorant for not having such defective information?

AO

**Axiom** · 01-31-2008, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Who is "they?" It sounds conspiritorial. But I do not believe that a world wide conspiracy of this type is possible. However, I agree with you that the media is a moderately controlling force, for moderately controlling governments, brought off by moderately controlling corporations. But it is not coordinated.

Agreed !!

But back to the "idea" that maybe it does not matter. Personally I feel it does. Personally I don't know that it matters. For sure, there are many examples of states losing their free media and descending into a tyrannical abyss: Nazi Germany, Cambodia et al. However, there are many more states where the media is less than free, yet the society and its people live life as happy as a pigs in mud: USA, South Africa, Itali, Singapore et al.

So, I do not know that a free media is all that important. Perhaps what is more important is the mentality of the groups who control the media. I am using the weak and hackneyed argument that, guns do not kill, people kill.

Care to comment?
BTW, remember I am playing the devils advocate to try to look deeper into the way civilisation functions.

ok, i believe that only by being more truly and thoroughly informed are we as a people able to make more accurate and more informed decisions in our lives, especially ones of a political nature.Voting in elections being a stark example.
You are correct in pointing out the role a disinforming and uninforming media has played in past totalitarian states.And this certainly is a great concern.
The people living as happy as pigs in mud , i would contend do so because they are to a degree ignorantly bliss, but i would say dangerously so. An uninformed populace is very vulnerable to the types of state manipulation you referred to in the cases of the tyrannical states.

there is a good documentary on youtube on edward bernays.
this helps to solve part of the puzzle, ie. the understanding of the history of psychological manipulation of the masses.

also reading john taylor gatto on the history of modern schooling is also pertinant when looking at the role schooling plays in forming an ill informing misleading picture of reality.

To your point on the inherent failure of media re. the people that work in it.
I would theorise that the media is answerable to higher powers, that ensures its limited content.
To your point of coordination.
History and anthropolgy shows that human groups form heirarchical or pyramidal structures. What amazes me is that people accept this , they accept coordination and cooperation by all groups including organised crime , but somehow when it gets to the top of the heirarchy or pyramid, suddenly people abandon that notion !
To me its both natural and logical that the most powerful would coordinate and cooperate for their mutual benefit , as all human groups do.
You now might say "hey, but they are not a group". And this is where we get into the history of secret societies like skull and bones, high level freemasonary,the bilderberg group, CFR, Tri lateral commision, IMF, world bank
It is clear that the most powerful do in fact coordinate their plans ( note:im not speaking as to agenda here, simply to existance of fact)

Wouldnt the heads of military or agricultural corporations want to cooperate with heads of media corporations?
Could this explain much of the lack of quality information?

**Axiom** · 01-31-2008, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

What's the most important thing I need to know? Who is not what they appear to be?

AO

the most important thing you need to know is that the media and society grossly ill informs its populace. (this may seem trite or obvious, but when you realise what we are not being told on a mass level, you may think differently)

I theorise that there are reasons for this.

I do not subscribe to the 'bottom-up dynamic' argument that people are just too dumb ,or that they generate the market for the dross they recieve.
My study of human history leads me to believe that it is a 'top-down dynamic' that ensures the type of information we recieve.

it not 'who' but what.
Media and society are not what they appear to be . The world is not what it appears to be. So called consensus reality or mass accepted reality bears little resemblance to actual reality.

Anything taken in isolation here, looks weak, but when studied as a whole ,great revelations are made.

**Axiom** · 01-31-2008, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

What does it mean to be grossly misinformed?

i go further, i say we are grossly ILLinformed, not just mis or dis.

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

There is a lot of information out there Axiom, a lot. People have to have closed minds about many things including what information is allowed to be processed by their brain.

exactly, people are conditioned via the info apparatus' , they are taught which and what information is valuable.
I theorise that part of the reason is to keep us all as productive work units, not to be distracted by grand picture thinking , not worthy of knowing greater truths.

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

Simply wading through masses and masses of info, especially stupid info that is wrong or misleading or just worthless, how does having such info help give an advantage over those who are uninformed/ignorant for not having such defective information?

AO

what stupid or defective information are you referring to ?
This along with the relatively trivial or small picture information is precisely what im rallying against.
Im trying to establish irrefutable and important information little or not aired in mainstream, as in the 2 examples above ,bilderberg group and human chipping.

the advantage of being more fully and accurately informed should be obvious for a society as a whole, being more able to make more accurate and informed decisions about their future.

eg.knowing about false flag operations,bilderberg group, microchipping humans, might make power structures more transparent, might decrease high level corruption, might make the populace less vulnerable to the agendas of power.

Knowledge is power
Lack of knowledge promotes exposure to exploitation.
History shows this.

**Axiom** · 02-01-2008, 07:56 PM

http://www.oldthinkernews.com/oldthi...banner%204.jpg

**Iconoclast** · 02-01-2008, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom

Voting in elections being a stark example.
You are correct in pointing out the role a disinforming and uninforming media has played in past totalitarian states.And this certainly is a great concern.
The people living as happy as pigs in mud , i would contend do so because they are to a degree ignorantly bliss, but i would say dangerously so. An uninformed populace is very vulnerable to the types of state manipulation you referred to in the cases of the tyrannical states.

Ax, the phrase above,"dangerously so," is where I would like to take you away from your comfort zone. How dangerous? How do you/we quantify it? I contented that the danger might now be very great at all

History and anthropolgy shows that human groups form heirarchical or pyramidal structures. What amazes me is that people accept this , they accept coordination and cooperation by all groups including organised crime , but somehow when it gets to the top of the heirarchy or pyramid, suddenly people abandon that notion !

The heirarchical model provides humans with a very stable and predictable course and position. I provides one of the most sought after conditions - oh for a quiet life. A corollary being the curse, "May you live in interesting times."

My point is that, perhaps, world government would be a the most good for the most number.

**Axiom** · 02-02-2008, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Ax, the phrase above,"dangerously so," is where I would like to take you away from your comfort zone. How dangerous? How do you/we quantify it? I contented that the danger might now be very great at all

the danger with being ill informed should be obvious, i would have thought.
otherwise i have a sea fronted property for sale in alice springs if youre interested !

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

The heirarchical model provides humans with a very stable and predictable course and position. I provides one of the most sought after conditions - oh for a quiet life. A corollary being the curse, "May you live in interesting times."

My point is that, perhaps, world government would be a the most good for the most number.

unfortunately this view belies history, the more power becomes concentrated , the more susceptible is a populace to opression and exploitation.

i refer all to a most informative and valuable resource:
http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/ -> Jan. 3, 2008
Alan Watt "Cutting Through The Matrix" LIVE on WTPRN:
"Definition of a Good Citizen - See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil, Have Fun"
if you can , listen to as much of the audio files there as you can.

only by doing your own personal research can you gain understanding, i can only help point you in productive directions( as a result of much time spent ,myself, doing the same, hopefully saving others time)

**Iconoclast** · 02-02-2008, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom

the danger with being ill informed should be obvious, i would have thought.
otherwise i have a sea fronted property for sale in alice springs if youre interested !

I think perhaps I am not communicating my point(s) well to you. OK...

I agree that we are grossly mal-informed by the broadcast media.
I agree that powerful groups, in turn, control much of that media.
I agree that there are dangers in the centralisation of power.
So, I agree fully with your general thesis.

However, what I am questioning is the size and shape of the danger. As much as I genuinely commend you for your research, I am worried that without asking about the significance of the danger, are you at risk of worrying too much. Perhaps the danger is even greater than even you believe! I think, therefore, that we/you/I should at least consider assessing the danger we agree is there.

unfortunately this view belies history, the more power becomes concentrated , the more susceptible is a populace to opression and exploitation.

Really? The most excruciating oppression and exploitation occurs in families, NOT by government and armies. My limited understanding of history is that the populace mostly gets on with oppressing and exploiting each other and avoiding taxes, while politics and war rages around them.

01-29-2008, 12:40 AM	#31 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 1,924 ICC Handle: guest	Taking to a brick wall Hi Axiom, Axiom, you know the truth. It is abundantly clear that censorship for the sake of censorship is completely against the spirit of the virtual revolution. Move on mate. You are far too intelligent, interesting and wise to be fighting this old fight over and over again. Say goodbye and don't look back. There are new worlds seeking creation that are calling your name. The space has been made, now speak YOUR mind freely and voice your concerns to the free world. cheers Fg7

01-29-2008, 01:00 AM	#32 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Hi Axiom, Axiom, you know the truth. It is abundantly clear that censorship for the sake of censorship is completely against the spirit of the virtual revolution. Move on mate. You are far too intelligent, interesting and wise to be fighting this old fight over and over again. Say goodbye and don't look back. There are new worlds seeking creation that are calling your name. The space has been made, now speak YOUR mind freely and voice your concerns to the free world. cheers Fg7 thankyou fg, yes, it really is beyond absurd. i simply tried to engage them in discussion about the need / rationale for such a rule ....... and they simply dodge what im saying,never addressing the point......its almost just wilfull denial..extraordinary.....its quite a comical dialogue for anyone very bored ! they say the way to catch a dictator is to make them act like one !

01-29-2008, 08:22 AM	#33 (permalink)
MOZ Volunteer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ozchess is the marginalised cyber-spot where cc-Mods choose to engage with cc-banned posters. Posts: 3,495	Originally Posted by Axiom thankyou fg, yes, it really is beyond absurd. i simply tried to engage them in discussion about the need / rationale for such a rule ....... and they simply dodge what im saying,never addressing the point......its almost just wilfull denial..extraordinary.....its quite a comical dialogue for anyone very bored ! they say the way to catch a dictator is to make them act like one ! Ax fg7's advice was very cogent. So, now, looking forward.....post here mate. It has much the same bunch of readers anyway so you lose nothing in coverage of the material you want to raise in profile. To maximise your readership be alert to the fact that lurkers here (that is, those who have not logged on) cannot read our shoutbox. regards MOZ* __________________ FReedom though Fischer-Random chess to enjoy the whole game.

01-29-2008, 04:34 PM	#34 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Axiom silence on this is their biggest ally. Who is "they?" It sounds conspiritorial. But I do not believe that a world wide conspiracy of this type is possible. However, I agree with you that the media is a moderately controlling force, for moderately controlling governments, brought off by moderately controlling corporations. But it is not coordinated. ... and it makes one feel good to do good , rather than passively accept 'evil' (for want of a better word) Agreed !! But back to the "idea" that maybe it does not matter. Personally I feel it does. Personally I don't know that it matters. For sure, there are many examples of states losing their free media and descending into a tyrannical abyss: Nazi Germany, Cambodia et al. However, there are many more states where the media is less than free, yet the society and its people live life as happy as a pigs in mud: USA, South Africa, Itali, Singapore et al. So, I do not know that a free media is all that important. Perhaps what is more important is the mentality of the groups who control the media. I am using the weak and hackneyed argument that, guns do not kill, people kill. Care to comment? BTW, remember I am playing the devils advocate to try to look deeper into the way civilisation functions. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

01-29-2008, 04:44 PM	#35 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by MOZ ... [OZCHESS] has much the same bunch of readers anyway so you lose nothing in coverage of the material you want to raise in profile. LOL, yes, the lurkers are in plague proportions. We know this from playing some fishing games. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

01-30-2008, 09:48 PM	#36 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,055 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Drunkards! Originally Posted by Axiom yes, it really is beyond absurd. i simply tried to engage them in discussion about the need / rationale for such a rule ....... and they simply dodge what im saying,never addressing the point......its almost just wilfull denial..extraordinary.....its quite a comical dialogue for anyone very bored ! They are drunk with their power Axiom! But enough about them, I want to hear more about these info wars! What's the most important thing I need to know? Who is not what they appear to be? AO __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

01-31-2008, 02:49 PM	#37 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Hi, I woke up to the sound of rain and I thought "Do all chessplayers love that sound?", because I do. For today is an indoor day, perfect for chess. I too love it ........It never seems to rain long enough ....it makes me think of other parts of the world where it can rain for days non stop ....lucky bastards ! Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Nevertheless, this got me thinking about conspiracy theory in general. I for one am quite uncomfortable with it. I don't particularly believe at least 75% of it, but I do acknowledge that sometimes there are basic grains of truth, even if they are heavily distorted. However anything that makes people think about their own human condition and that of others, in our industrial worlds, must be ok, even if it is complete garbage So I guess, what I am trying to say is this. Can we debunk some of the more 'inventive' claims made in the conspiracy theory threads with hard evidence. And whilst we are at it, could we possibly investigate why some aspects of 'conspiracy theory' appeal to people. I am interested to know if the stories presented by 'conspiracy theory' have a meaningful, or symbolic appeal to some people or, is it just an endless sea of white noise in the age of information overload? cheers Fg7 my basic premise is this: people are generally simply not well informed enough to even get to the stage of sifting through information in any meaningful accurate way, to determine the value or degree of truth contained therein. so how are we informed ? School,University? Family? Media? Friends,Acquaintances ? Books? (SUFMFAB) It is my contention ,based on years of study ,including the areas of history,psychology,media and direct observation. - that as a people we are grossly ill informed. ( some will say "thats obvious ,we all know that", and shrug their shoulders not realising the gravity of this ) how do i conclude this ? - by establishing that well sourced , corroberated ,credible and important information scarcely gets a mention from the above main info sources(SUFMFAB) I focus on the media as that is the most powerful and ongoing source generally in people's lives. It is the interface between people and information. It is generally the way people become informed about the world around them. It has a powerful influence in constructing our consensus reality. ok, so what are some examples of important information ignored or minimised by media ? (here, im talking about the most pervasive forms of media , call it mass media if you wish) - the bilderberg group ( note, im not drawing any conclusions about their agenda, simply that this group exists. and as it is a secret meeting of the most powerful people, then i naturally conclude that this is important information) - humans currently implanted with microchips ( again note , im not drawing any conclusions about the agenda, simply that humans implanted with a microchip is important information) some years ago the mere mention of these 2 items would condemn you to the ranks of conspiracy theorist nutcase kook. From people very confident in their opinions but hopelessly uninformed. these 2 items are now undisputedly true........but do your own survey...im constantly surprised at the number of educated(not necassarily,informed) people who still have no knowledge of these facts. so where does the so called conspiracy theory come in ? -it comes from people trying to make sense of incredible and important information that they simply do not see aired in mainstream society. they naturally ask themselves why and how can this be so. Now ask yourself this , where on tv , radio or newspapers have you seen/heard serious information dissemination or debate on the bilderberg group or current human microchipping ? Is it because the bilderberg group is simply not news worthy ? ( remember the details of meetings are kept secret and some of the most powerful people in the world attend these group meetings !) Where are the debates on human microchipping on abc radio or sbs "insight" program for instance? Is it because its a boring uninteresting un news worthy story ?? The term "conspiracy theorist" is used as a term of ridicule , a perjorative term used to simply dismiss and deny uncomfortable information. It is often used by people who have absolutely no idea about the subject matter , but are ultra confident in their conclusions.It is also a term that lumps serious researchers in with really nutty invisable space beams from planet zelion crowd. Conspiracy theorist means someone who theorises that certain events involve a conspiracy (ie. a covert plan by 2 or more people) and of course many conspiracies have occured both big and small( it is a term used in law) Only thorough research can shed light on the degree of truth of particular theories of conspiracy ..and yes it can get quite mind boggling, so i try to stick to the basic premise that we are grossly ill informed , because this is far more tangible and testable. ........this is the starting point , theorising comes later.

01-31-2008, 03:44 PM	#38 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,055 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Not All Info is Worthwhile Originally Posted by Axiom ..and yes it can get quite mind boggling, so i try to stick to the basic premise that we are grossly ill informed , because this is far more tangible and testable. ........this is the starting point , theorising comes later. What does it mean to be grossly misinformed? There is a lot of information out there Axiom, a lot. People have to have closed minds about many things including what information is allowed to be processed by their brain. Simply wading through masses and masses of info, especially stupid info that is wrong or misleading or just worthless, how does having such info help give an advantage over those who are uninformed/ignorant for not having such defective information? AO __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

01-31-2008, 03:50 PM	#39 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Who is "they?" It sounds conspiritorial. But I do not believe that a world wide conspiracy of this type is possible. However, I agree with you that the media is a moderately controlling force, for moderately controlling governments, brought off by moderately controlling corporations. But it is not coordinated. Agreed !! But back to the "idea" that maybe it does not matter. Personally I feel it does. Personally I don't know that it matters. For sure, there are many examples of states losing their free media and descending into a tyrannical abyss: Nazi Germany, Cambodia et al. However, there are many more states where the media is less than free, yet the society and its people live life as happy as a pigs in mud: USA, South Africa, Itali, Singapore et al. So, I do not know that a free media is all that important. Perhaps what is more important is the mentality of the groups who control the media. I am using the weak and hackneyed argument that, guns do not kill, people kill. Care to comment? BTW, remember I am playing the devils advocate to try to look deeper into the way civilisation functions. ok, i believe that only by being more truly and thoroughly informed are we as a people able to make more accurate and more informed decisions in our lives, especially ones of a political nature.Voting in elections being a stark example. You are correct in pointing out the role a disinforming and uninforming media has played in past totalitarian states.And this certainly is a great concern. The people living as happy as pigs in mud , i would contend do so because they are to a degree ignorantly bliss, but i would say dangerously so. An uninformed populace is very vulnerable to the types of state manipulation you referred to in the cases of the tyrannical states. there is a good documentary on youtube on edward bernays. this helps to solve part of the puzzle, ie. the understanding of the history of psychological manipulation of the masses. also reading john taylor gatto on the history of modern schooling is also pertinant when looking at the role schooling plays in forming an ill informing misleading picture of reality. To your point on the inherent failure of media re. the people that work in it. I would theorise that the media is answerable to higher powers, that ensures its limited content. To your point of coordination. History and anthropolgy shows that human groups form heirarchical or pyramidal structures. What amazes me is that people accept this , they accept coordination and cooperation by all groups including organised crime , but somehow when it gets to the top of the heirarchy or pyramid, suddenly people abandon that notion ! To me its both natural and logical that the most powerful would coordinate and cooperate for their mutual benefit , as all human groups do. You now might say "hey, but they are not a group". And this is where we get into the history of secret societies like skull and bones, high level freemasonary,the bilderberg group, CFR, Tri lateral commision, IMF, world bank It is clear that the most powerful do in fact coordinate their plans ( note:im not speaking as to agenda here, simply to existance of fact) Wouldnt the heads of military or agricultural corporations want to cooperate with heads of media corporations? Could this explain much of the lack of quality information?

01-31-2008, 04:03 PM	#40 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One What's the most important thing I need to know? Who is not what they appear to be? AO the most important thing you need to know is that the media and society grossly ill informs its populace. (this may seem trite or obvious, but when you realise what we are not being told on a mass level, you may think differently) I theorise that there are reasons for this. I do not subscribe to the 'bottom-up dynamic' argument that people are just too dumb ,or that they generate the market for the dross they recieve. My study of human history leads me to believe that it is a 'top-down dynamic' that ensures the type of information we recieve. it not 'who' but what. Media and society are not what they appear to be . The world is not what it appears to be. So called consensus reality or mass accepted reality bears little resemblance to actual reality. Anything taken in isolation here, looks weak, but when studied as a whole ,great revelations are made.

01-31-2008, 04:23 PM	#41 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One What does it mean to be grossly misinformed? i go further, i say we are grossly ILLinformed, not just mis or dis. Originally Posted by Arrogant-One There is a lot of information out there Axiom, a lot. People have to have closed minds about many things including what information is allowed to be processed by their brain. exactly, people are conditioned via the info apparatus' , they are taught which and what information is valuable. I theorise that part of the reason is to keep us all as productive work units, not to be distracted by grand picture thinking , not worthy of knowing greater truths. Originally Posted by Arrogant-One Simply wading through masses and masses of info, especially stupid info that is wrong or misleading or just worthless, how does having such info help give an advantage over those who are uninformed/ignorant for not having such defective information? AO what stupid or defective information are you referring to ? This along with the relatively trivial or small picture information is precisely what im rallying against. Im trying to establish irrefutable and important information little or not aired in mainstream, as in the 2 examples above ,bilderberg group and human chipping. the advantage of being more fully and accurately informed should be obvious for a society as a whole, being more able to make more accurate and informed decisions about their future. eg.knowing about false flag operations,bilderberg group, microchipping humans, might make power structures more transparent, might decrease high level corruption, might make the populace less vulnerable to the agendas of power. Knowledge is power Lack of knowledge promotes exposure to exploitation. History shows this.

02-01-2008, 07:56 PM	#42 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Highly Recommended Highly Informative http://www.oldthinkernews.com/oldthi...banner%204.jpg

02-01-2008, 09:15 PM	#43 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Axiom Voting in elections being a stark example. You are correct in pointing out the role a disinforming and uninforming media has played in past totalitarian states.And this certainly is a great concern. The people living as happy as pigs in mud , i would contend do so because they are to a degree ignorantly bliss, but i would say dangerously so. An uninformed populace is very vulnerable to the types of state manipulation you referred to in the cases of the tyrannical states. Ax, the phrase above,"dangerously so," is where I would like to take you away from your comfort zone. How dangerous? How do you/we quantify it? I contented that the danger might now be very great at all History and anthropolgy shows that human groups form heirarchical or pyramidal structures. What amazes me is that people accept this , they accept coordination and cooperation by all groups including organised crime , but somehow when it gets to the top of the heirarchy or pyramid, suddenly people abandon that notion ! The heirarchical model provides humans with a very stable and predictable course and position. I provides one of the most sought after conditions - oh for a quiet life. A corollary being the curse, "May you live in interesting times." My point is that, perhaps, world government would be a the most good for the most number. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

02-02-2008, 06:32 PM	#44 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Ax, the phrase above,"dangerously so," is where I would like to take you away from your comfort zone. How dangerous? How do you/we quantify it? I contented that the danger might now be very great at all the danger with being ill informed should be obvious, i would have thought. otherwise i have a sea fronted property for sale in alice springs if youre interested ! Originally Posted by Iconoclast The heirarchical model provides humans with a very stable and predictable course and position. I provides one of the most sought after conditions - oh for a quiet life. A corollary being the curse, "May you live in interesting times." My point is that, perhaps, world government would be a the most good for the most number. unfortunately this view belies history, the more power becomes concentrated , the more susceptible is a populace to opression and exploitation. i refer all to a most informative and valuable resource: http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/ -> Jan. 3, 2008 Alan Watt "Cutting Through The Matrix" LIVE on WTPRN: "Definition of a Good Citizen - See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil, Have Fun" if you can , listen to as much of the audio files there as you can. only by doing your own personal research can you gain understanding, i can only help point you in productive directions( as a result of much time spent ,myself, doing the same, hopefully saving others time) Last edited by Axiom : 02-02-2008 at 06:44 PM

02-02-2008, 09:54 PM	#45 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Axiom the danger with being ill informed should be obvious, i would have thought. otherwise i have a sea fronted property for sale in alice springs if youre interested ! I think perhaps I am not communicating my point(s) well to you. OK... I agree that we are grossly mal-informed by the broadcast media. I agree that powerful groups, in turn, control much of that media. I agree that there are dangers in the centralisation of power. So, I agree fully with your general thesis. However, what I am questioning is the size and shape of the danger. As much as I genuinely commend you for your research, I am worried that without asking about the significance of the danger, are you at risk of worrying too much. Perhaps the danger is even greater than even you believe! I think, therefore, that we/you/I should at least consider assessing the danger we agree is there. unfortunately this view belies history, the more power becomes concentrated , the more susceptible is a populace to opression and exploitation. Really? The most excruciating oppression and exploitation occurs in families, NOT by government and armies. My limited understanding of history is that the populace mostly gets on with oppressing and exploiting each other and avoiding taxes, while politics and war rages around them. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

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