Philospher's Puzzle - OzChess

**Just2Good** · 07-23-2010, 08:15 PM

An eccentric billionaire places before you a vial of toxin that, if you drink it, will make you painfully ill for a day, but will not threaten your life or have any lasting effects. The billionaire will pay you one million dollars tomorrow morning if, at midnight tonight, you intend to drink the toxin tomorrow afternoon. He emphasizes that you need not drink the toxin to receive the money; in fact, the money will already be in your bank account hours before the time for drinking it arrives, if you succeed. All you have to do is. . . intend at midnight tonight to drink the stuff tomorrow afternoon. You are perfectly free to change your mind after receiving the money and not drink the toxin.

Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid?

**Axiom** · 07-23-2010, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Good

Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid?

none at all , whatsoever , ever .

**Iconoclast** · 07-23-2010, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Good

Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid?

If you swear/contract/agree to this deal you cannot renege. Your word is your bond. You are only as good as your word.

As for "reasonable grounds" to renege - there will always be some new parameter you can invent for this hypothetical that will be "reasonable grounds."

What you need to know is what would be "reasonable." In general there would be only half a dozen "grounds" in a person's life that could be considered "reasonable."

BTW, I also think that armed robbery of the "eccentric billionaire" is fully fine - after all, I have not made any deal with him to leave him alone to remain a billionaire. Let's face it, all billionaires are thieves of the world's wealth.

**Jaydon** · 07-23-2010, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Good

Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid?

Am I missing something or is it a choice between being painfully ill for a day or not being painfully ill for a day? In which case I'd have to answer no

**Axiom** · 07-23-2010, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

If you swear/contract/agree to this deal you cannot renege. Your word is your bond. You are only as good as your word.

"He emphasizes that you need NOT drink the toxin to receive the money"

**Axiom** · 07-23-2010, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jaydon

Am I missing something or is it a choice between being painfully ill for a day or not being painfully ill for a day? In which case I'd have to answer no

correct .
it is little wonder you are an SCTC !

**Iconoclast** · 07-23-2010, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom

"He emphasizes that you need not drink the toxin to receive the money"

True, I need not drink it, but if I state that my intention is to drink it, then I must. If I were to merely SAY that I intended to drink it, but in reality had no such intention, I would be being dishonest. It does not matter if the SAW lite dude would not know if I was being dishonest, I would know that I was being dishonest. I would drink it - I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror.

**Axiom** · 07-23-2010, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

True, I need not drink it, but if I state that my intention is to drink it, then I must. If I were to merely SAY that I intended to drink it, but in reality had no such intention, I would be being dishonest. It does not matter if the SAW lite dude would not know if I was being dishonest, I would know that I was being dishonest. I would drink it - I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror.

would you also cut off your nose ?

**Iconoclast** · 07-24-2010, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Axiom

would you also cut off your nose ?

Subjecting one's self to a day of feeling ill is no different to undertaking an unpleasant task. Cutting off one's own nose is more than undignified, it is humiliating. I would not enter into such a bazaar deal, unless there were massive benefits were for others, I certainly would not do it for myself.

**Axiom** · 07-24-2010, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Subjecting one's self to a day of feeling ill is no different to undertaking an unpleasant task. Cutting off one's own nose is more than undignified, it is humiliating. I would not enter into such a bazaar deal, unless there were massive benefits were for others, I certainly would not do it for myself.

If someone emphasizes to you a fully mutually understood ' get out clause' , would you not be foolish and self destructive to not use it ?

Maybe the puzzle could be phrased differently to make it more of a puzzle .

**Iconoclast** · 07-24-2010, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by Axiom

If someone emphasizes to you a fully mutually understood ' get out clause' , would you not be foolish and self destructive to not use it ?

You call it a "get out clause." I call it an artificial piece of silliness. That clause effectively says "have the money for nothing." that is not an exchange/deal/arrangement. It is a gift.

I don't mind hypotheticals as long as they are designed in a way that reflects a scenario that is realistic. The hypothetical offered here is idiotic. I don't know why I have participated in it.

**Axiom** · 07-24-2010, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

You call it a "get out clause." I call it an artificial piece of silliness. That clause effectively says "have the money for nothing." that is not an exchange/deal/arrangement. It is a gift.

I don't mind hypotheticals as long as they are designed in a way that reflects a scenario that is realistic. The hypothetical offered here is idiotic. I don't know why I have participated in it.

yes , i added above : "Maybe the puzzle could be phrased differently to make it more of a puzzle "

**Jaydon** · 07-24-2010, 01:35 AM

I suppose we need j2g to give us the source of this.. puzzle? or explain it further if need be.. or we could just change it ourselves to be we've told him we're going to drink it and he has no way to retract the money once given to us. and the money will be delivered before you drink it

"An eccentric billionaire places before you a vial of toxin that, if you drink it, will make you painfully ill for a day, but will not threaten your life or have any lasting effects. The billionaire will pay you one million dollars tomorrow morning if, at midnight tonight, you intend to drink the toxin tomorrow afternoon. The money will already be in your bank account hours before the time for drinking it arrives. The money can not be retracted if you go back on your word. To gain the money you have to give your word that you will drink the toxin."

Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid?

Sorry if I messed it up but I had a go at rephrasing it to make it more of a thought invoking puzzle, (at 12 40 in the morning)

**Axiom** · 07-24-2010, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by Jaydon

I suppose we need j2g to give us the source of this.. puzzle? or explain it further if need be.. or we could just change it ourselves to be we've told him we're going to drink it and he has no way to retract the money once given to us. and the money will be delivered before you drink it

"An eccentric billionaire places before you a vial of toxin that, if you drink it, will make you painfully ill for a day, but will not threaten your life or have any lasting effects. The billionaire will pay you one million dollars tomorrow morning if, at midnight tonight, you intend to drink the toxin tomorrow afternoon. The money will already be in your bank account hours before the time for drinking it arrives. The money can not be retracted if you go back on your word. To gain the money you have to give your word that you will drink the toxin."

Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid?

Sorry if I messed it up but I had a go at rephrasing it to make it more of a thought invoking puzzle, (at 12 40 in the morning)

that's more like it jaydon .

my thinking would be, what a generous eccentric billionaire he/she is !
and i wouldn't want to hurt their feelings so i would say i drank it , but really have thrown it down the drain .

No moral dilemma .
Why ?
Because a) the person is eccentric ( he probably loves this sort of thing , and is getting some sort of perverse kick out of it anyway )
b) he/she is a billionaire , so in their eccentric little way , they are giving back to the community .
c) a fool and their money are soon parted
d) they are not certifiably insane , just eccentric , so i wouldn't be exploiting them.
e) i was feeling fine at midnight , but awoke with a slight tummy upset , and my doctor advised me it would be unwise to ingest any poison .
f) in fact the doctor suggested that if i drank it at any time i could possibly die
g) i have the doctor's certificate and everything

oh and f) it would teach the silly duffer a lesson in reality !

**Just2Good** · 07-24-2010, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

As for "reasonable grounds" to renege - there will always be some new parameter you can invent for this hypothetical that will be "reasonable grounds."

The problem is this:

You only get the money upon forming a genuine intention to drink the toxin. If you renege, it can be said that you never had the intention in the first place, hence you lied to obtain the million dollars.

The question therefore becomes, once you form the genuine intention to drink the toxin, can you then (morally or otherwise) back out without doubts arising over whether you actually formed the genuine intention in the first place?

In real life, however, to intend to do something requires no tangible commitment and intention is impossible to prove or disprove as long as the intention is theoretically possible.

Kavka's toxin puzzle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

07-23-2010, 08:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Philospher's Puzzle An eccentric billionaire places before you a vial of toxin that, if you drink it, will make you painfully ill for a day, but will not threaten your life or have any lasting effects. The billionaire will pay you one million dollars tomorrow morning if, at midnight tonight, you intend to drink the toxin tomorrow afternoon. He emphasizes that you need not drink the toxin to receive the money; in fact, the money will already be in your bank account hours before the time for drinking it arrives, if you succeed. All you have to do is. . . intend at midnight tonight to drink the stuff tomorrow afternoon. You are perfectly free to change your mind after receiving the money and not drink the toxin. Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid? __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

07-23-2010, 08:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Reality Analysis Originally Posted by Just2Good Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid? none at all , whatsoever , ever . __________________ "Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom Last edited by Axiom : 07-23-2010 at 09:46 PM

07-23-2010, 09:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Just2Good Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid? If you swear/contract/agree to this deal you cannot renege. Your word is your bond. You are only as good as your word. As for "reasonable grounds" to renege - there will always be some new parameter you can invent for this hypothetical that will be "reasonable grounds." What you need to know is what would be "reasonable." In general there would be only half a dozen "grounds" in a person's life that could be considered "reasonable." BTW, I also think that armed robbery of the "eccentric billionaire" is fully fine - after all, I have not made any deal with him to leave him alone to remain a billionaire. Let's face it, all billionaires are thieves of the world's wealth. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

07-23-2010, 09:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
Jaydon SCTC Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Queensland, Gold Coast Posts: 1,101 ICC Handle: Aussieboy007 FICS Handle: Bermusia	Originally Posted by Just2Good Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid? Am I missing something or is it a choice between being painfully ill for a day or not being painfully ill for a day? In which case I'd have to answer no

07-23-2010, 09:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Iconoclast If you swear/contract/agree to this deal you cannot renege. Your word is your bond. You are only as good as your word. "He emphasizes that you need NOT drink the toxin to receive the money" __________________ "Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom Last edited by Axiom : 07-24-2010 at 01:38 AM

07-23-2010, 09:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Jaydon Am I missing something or is it a choice between being painfully ill for a day or not being painfully ill for a day? In which case I'd have to answer no correct . it is little wonder you are an SCTC ! __________________ "Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom Last edited by Axiom : 07-24-2010 at 12:05 AM

07-23-2010, 10:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Axiom "He emphasizes that you need not drink the toxin to receive the money" True, I need not drink it, but if I state that my intention is to drink it, then I must. If I were to merely SAY that I intended to drink it, but in reality had no such intention, I would be being dishonest. It does not matter if the SAW lite dude would not know if I was being dishonest, I would know that I was being dishonest. I would drink it - I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

07-23-2010, 10:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Iconoclast True, I need not drink it, but if I state that my intention is to drink it, then I must. If I were to merely SAY that I intended to drink it, but in reality had no such intention, I would be being dishonest. It does not matter if the SAW lite dude would not know if I was being dishonest, I would know that I was being dishonest. I would drink it - I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror. would you also cut off your nose ? __________________ "Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom

07-24-2010, 12:08 AM	#9 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Axiom would you also cut off your nose ? Subjecting one's self to a day of feeling ill is no different to undertaking an unpleasant task. Cutting off one's own nose is more than undignified, it is humiliating. I would not enter into such a bazaar deal, unless there were massive benefits were for others, I certainly would not do it for myself. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

07-24-2010, 12:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Subjecting one's self to a day of feeling ill is no different to undertaking an unpleasant task. Cutting off one's own nose is more than undignified, it is humiliating. I would not enter into such a bazaar deal, unless there were massive benefits were for others, I certainly would not do it for myself. If someone emphasizes to you a fully mutually understood ' get out clause' , would you not be foolish and self destructive to not use it ? Maybe the puzzle could be phrased differently to make it more of a puzzle . __________________ "Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom Last edited by Axiom : 07-24-2010 at 01:08 AM

07-24-2010, 01:22 AM	#11 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Axiom If someone emphasizes to you a fully mutually understood ' get out clause' , would you not be foolish and self destructive to not use it ? You call it a "get out clause." I call it an artificial piece of silliness. That clause effectively says "have the money for nothing." that is not an exchange/deal/arrangement. It is a gift. I don't mind hypotheticals as long as they are designed in a way that reflects a scenario that is realistic. The hypothetical offered here is idiotic. I don't know why I have participated in it. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

07-24-2010, 01:30 AM	#12 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by Iconoclast You call it a "get out clause." I call it an artificial piece of silliness. That clause effectively says "have the money for nothing." that is not an exchange/deal/arrangement. It is a gift. I don't mind hypotheticals as long as they are designed in a way that reflects a scenario that is realistic. The hypothetical offered here is idiotic. I don't know why I have participated in it. yes , i added above : "Maybe the puzzle could be phrased differently to make it more of a puzzle " __________________ "Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom

07-24-2010, 01:35 AM	#13 (permalink)
Jaydon SCTC Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Queensland, Gold Coast Posts: 1,101 ICC Handle: Aussieboy007 FICS Handle: Bermusia	I suppose we need j2g to give us the source of this.. puzzle? or explain it further if need be.. or we could just change it ourselves to be we've told him we're going to drink it and he has no way to retract the money once given to us. and the money will be delivered before you drink it "An eccentric billionaire places before you a vial of toxin that, if you drink it, will make you painfully ill for a day, but will not threaten your life or have any lasting effects. The billionaire will pay you one million dollars tomorrow morning if, at midnight tonight, you intend to drink the toxin tomorrow afternoon. The money will already be in your bank account hours before the time for drinking it arrives. The money can not be retracted if you go back on your word. To gain the money you have to give your word that you will drink the toxin." Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid? Sorry if I messed it up but I had a go at rephrasing it to make it more of a thought invoking puzzle, (at 12 40 in the morning)

07-24-2010, 02:50 AM	#14 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	No Moral or Ethical Dilemma Originally Posted by Jaydon I suppose we need j2g to give us the source of this.. puzzle? or explain it further if need be.. or we could just change it ourselves to be we've told him we're going to drink it and he has no way to retract the money once given to us. and the money will be delivered before you drink it "An eccentric billionaire places before you a vial of toxin that, if you drink it, will make you painfully ill for a day, but will not threaten your life or have any lasting effects. The billionaire will pay you one million dollars tomorrow morning if, at midnight tonight, you intend to drink the toxin tomorrow afternoon. The money will already be in your bank account hours before the time for drinking it arrives. The money can not be retracted if you go back on your word. To gain the money you have to give your word that you will drink the toxin." Are there any reasonable grounds for the person to drink the toxin once the money has been paid? Sorry if I messed it up but I had a go at rephrasing it to make it more of a thought invoking puzzle, (at 12 40 in the morning) that's more like it jaydon . my thinking would be, what a generous eccentric billionaire he/she is ! and i wouldn't want to hurt their feelings so i would say i drank it , but really have thrown it down the drain . No moral dilemma . Why ? Because a) the person is eccentric ( he probably loves this sort of thing , and is getting some sort of perverse kick out of it anyway ) b) he/she is a billionaire , so in their eccentric little way , they are giving back to the community . c) a fool and their money are soon parted d) they are not certifiably insane , just eccentric , so i wouldn't be exploiting them. e) i was feeling fine at midnight , but awoke with a slight tummy upset , and my doctor advised me it would be unwise to ingest any poison . f) in fact the doctor suggested that if i drank it at any time i could possibly die g) i have the doctor's certificate and everything oh and f) it would teach the silly duffer a lesson in reality ! __________________ "Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom Last edited by Axiom : 07-24-2010 at 04:05 AM

07-24-2010, 08:11 AM	#15 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Iconoclast As for "reasonable grounds" to renege - there will always be some new parameter you can invent for this hypothetical that will be "reasonable grounds." The problem is this: You only get the money upon forming a genuine intention to drink the toxin. If you renege, it can be said that you never had the intention in the first place, hence you lied to obtain the million dollars. The question therefore becomes, once you form the genuine intention to drink the toxin, can you then (morally or otherwise) back out without doubts arising over whether you actually formed the genuine intention in the first place? In real life, however, to intend to do something requires no tangible commitment and intention is impossible to prove or disprove as long as the intention is theoretically possible. Kavka's toxin puzzle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

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