Israel's Attack on Gaza - Page 2 - OzChess

**antichrist** · 02-13-2009, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

Understanding the dynamics of this latest conflict is a complex issue. I have very little sympathy for either side.

Among the big ticket issues I have noticed:

(a) There are motivations for the attacks.

If there were no attacks on Israel, Israel wouldn't be going to war. By contrast, if there were absolutely no attacks on Palestinians, they would be killing civilians as a matter of policy.

A/C
Israel was created by Zionists grabing Palestinian land by terrorism, the Stern gang and others, i.e., they started the war 60 years ago and it has never stopped.

Simon:
The fundamental reason that many people support Israel is because they are not an unprovoked aggressor with no grievances.

A/C
Originally people supported Israel coz of the Holocaust by Nazi Germany. People without a sense of history may support Israel coz of the above reason. Isreal was the provateur 60 years ago when they used terrorism to get Palestine.

Simon:
(b) There is a general problem of a void in leadership having the authority to stop attacks on Israel. Therefore Israel continues to retaliate.

A/C
Newspaper reports state that somehow Israel encouraged the formation of Hamas to try to take support from the PLO via divide and rule. The PlO did carry out attacks on Israel and that is how they became popular.

Simon:
(c) Stopping the retaliating would't do anything.

The people who want Israel destroyed aren't going to change their minds even if Israel never shoots and fires at anyone ever again. A complete cessation of violence by the Israelis would probably result in a massive escalation of violence against them.

A/C
Of course stopping retaliating wont stop anything - the Palestinians want their land back - just as Jews who had paintings stolen from by the Nazis 60 years ago still want them back.

Simon:
Again, this provides a strong reason for people to support Israel in their actions.

A/C
Well the tide has turned to a certain agree coz now many people support the Palestinian cause - whereas 40 years ago this was not the case at all.

Simon:
(d) Many of the other neighboring countries could do something about this if they wanted to.

There is the issue of not enough land for the Palestinians. Well, I believe there are much larger countries in the area that could take them in and give them land. But many don't want to because they see the Palestinians as a way to undermine Israel.

A/C
The Palestinians living in those other countries are occupying those countries, and the Palestinians now in refugee camps were driven out and fled violence in Israel, but they still morally own land in Israel. And according to international law have the right to return that Israel has denied them for 60 years. If Arabs break international laws the US invades them - if Isreal does the same nothing happens. What racism!

Simon:
If Israel's neighbours hadn't tried to wipe them out I don't think we would have a problem we do today. The issue isn't that Israel is at fault, but rather that circumstances beyond their control now necessitate their attacks.

A/C Well the reasons the neighbours tried to wipe them out was coz of trickery in setting up the state of Israel - esp on stolen land what does Israel expect?

Simon
What exactly does anyone you propose they do? Not defend themselves? Then they would all die because people want to kill them, and not necessarily because of anything they have done. Make peace deals? With whom? There's no functional Palestinian authority they can negotiate with.

A/C
The proposition is that Israel give the land back to the Palestinians - isn't that simple enough, they have only been asking for it back for 60 years.
Israelis should vacate the land over a period of years or even decades so that the Palestinians can come back.

What they have done is robbery and genocide. The breaking of many many international laws, that is war crimes and crimes against humanity. Only last week an Israeli journalist, Gideon Levy, said exactly the same thing, he listed about a dozen broken laws. A top bloke he is and could be made an honourary Palestinian and a hero.

Simon:
I do not think there is any resolution to this long standing conflict short of Israel moving or the Palestinian populace developing a functioning government which is willing to stop supporting terrorists.

A/C
A few years ago the Israeli demand was democracy for Palestine - as if Israeli really cared about democracy for Palestine whilst Israeli had stolen land and was killing them on a massive scale. Well Palestine had their elections and Hamas was elected - then Israel invades and imprisons many of the new representatives - no wonder they say there is no one to talk to - the elected representatives are in Israeli jails.

For 2 years Israeli has blockaded Gaza - another crime against humanity - even many fair-minded Israeli Jews have seen the injustice of this and support the Palestinians.

This is not at all a black and white issue at all in Isreal's favour.

**Axiom** · 02-13-2009, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

A/C
A few years ago the Israeli demand was democracy for Palestine - as if Israeli really cared about democracy for Palestine whilst Israeli had stolen land and was killing them on a massive scale. Well Palestine had their elections and Hamas was elected - then Israel invades and imprisons many of the new representatives - no wonder they say there is no one to talk to - the elected representatives are in Israeli jails.

For 2 years Israeli has blockaded Gaza - another crime against humanity - even many fair-minded Israeli Jews have seen the injustice of this and support the Palestinians.

This is not at all a black and white issue at all in Isreal's favour.

Isn't history a wonderful teacher ?

If only were people INFORMED.

**Cephus** · 02-15-2009, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

A/C
A few years ago the Israeli demand was democracy for Palestine - as if Israeli really cared about democracy for Palestine whilst Israeli had stolen land and was killing them on a massive scale. Well Palestine had their elections and Hamas was elected - then Israel invades and imprisons many of the new representatives - no wonder they say there is no one to talk to - the elected representatives are in Israeli jails.

For 2 years Israeli has blockaded Gaza - another crime against humanity - even many fair-minded Israeli Jews have seen the injustice of this and support the Palestinians.

This is not at all a black and white issue at all in Isreal's favour.

Iagree because the Israeli version of things has hardly been vindicated.

They admitted they shelled the school - that the school was, in fact their intended target. They even came up with reasons they felt shelling the school was necessary and issued numerous statements and press releases on the subject. So it makes little difference that they missed their target and instead slaughtered dozens of unarmed civilians or were lying about "returning fire" coming from inside the school and were in fact aiming for dozens of unarmed civilians.

**antichrist** · 02-17-2009, 06:15 PM

Today's news is that hundreds of acres of West Bank land is being allowed for settlers from Israel - direct convention of all international law - and they reakon they want peace and justice - what bullshit.

**Just2Good** · 02-17-2009, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

Today's news is that hundreds of acres of West Bank land is being allowed for settlers from Israel - direct convention of all international law - and they reakon they want peace and justice - what bullshit.

I hear you talk about all the problems, rarely do I hear you speak about solutions!

**Axiom** · 02-18-2009, 12:30 AM

A/C - some good articles on this topic at Jeff Rense Program

**Jaz** · 02-18-2009, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by antichrist

but if the UN and colonial forces gave your land to someone else and your people were attacked and driven in refugee camps and blown to smithereens whenever you tried to get it back, would you still have airy fairy delusions of peace and harmony????

What land? I have no land. I think thats why we have problems at the first place. Because we think we have land and that we ought to protect it. The same thing with the Gaza and Israel conflict.

So make it peace, harmony, nature and no-land-ownership. Better?

I hold no sympathy for those who fight, regardless of what sides.

**antichrist** · 02-18-2009, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom

A/C - some good articles on this topic at Jeff Rense Program

thanks for reference

**Just2Good** · 02-19-2009, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

but if the UN and colonial forces gave your land to someone else and your people were attacked and driven in refugee camps and blown to smithereens whenever you tried to get it back, would you still have airy fairy delusions of peace and harmony????

How much land do they need? All of it? And where are the Israeli's supposed to live?

**antichrist** · 02-28-2009, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

How much land do they need? All of it? And where are the Israeli's supposed to live?

The Israelis can live in all the countries who have been supplying with weapons of war crimes for the past 60 years

**Just2Good** · 03-01-2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by antichrist

The Israelis can live in all the countries who have been supplying with weapons of war crimes for the past 60 years

War crimes? Didn't the war leading to the establishment of Israel end in the 60's?

**Axiom** · 03-02-2009, 10:19 PM

Iran asks Interpol to arrest Israeli war criminals
Sun, 01 Mar 2009 23:36:57 GMT
Tehran's Public Prosecutor Saeed Mortazavi
Interpol begins studying Iran's request for the arrest of 15 senior Israeli officials over war crimes committed during the Gaza offensive.

At a news briefing on Sunday, Tehran's Public Prosecutor, Saeed Mortazavi, said that Iran had referred the case to the International Criminal Police Organization (ICPO or Interpol), drawing on the organization's charter and Israel's violation of the Geneva Conventions.

"Governments of 180 countries have received the information necessary for identifying the suspects," he said.

In a Monday statement, Iran's judiciary said that it has asked Interpol to issue an international Red Notice security alert for the 15 Israeli officials who were involved in the 23-day Israeli offensive on Gaza.

The statement added that the judiciary was also looking into complaints made against 100 other Israelis, with top military and government posts.

In December 2008, Iran's judicial body announced a decision to set up a court to investigate complaints, made by wounded Gazans against Israel and delivered to Iran by the Palestinian envoy.

The judiciary said that it would be ready to try the implicated Israeli officials in absentia.

"In the current week, we have completed our investigation of about 15 individuals who were among those criminals," IRIB, Iran's State Television, quoted Mortazavi as saying.

"Based on our investigation and according to article 2 of the Interpol charter, we asked Interpol to arrest these suspects."

Mortazavi said the charges included war crimes, invasion, occupation, genocide and crimes against humanity.

The Iranian prosecutor was referring to Israeli strikes that started on December 27 on the densely populated Palestinian coastal territory and did not end until it had claimed the lives of more than 1,330 Gazans, mostly civilians.

Many international NGOs and human rights organizations, Palestinians wounded in the Gaza onslaught, more than 5,700 Iranian lawyers and attorneys in the Iranian Bar Association along with a large number of medics were also among those who filed complaints against Tel Aviv, Mortazavi added.

The list of Israeli war criminals includes:

1 Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert
2 Defense Minister Ehud Barak
3 Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni
4 Chief of the General Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi
5 Commander in Chief of the Israeli Air Force Ido Nehoshtan
6 Commander of the Gaza war -- Operation Cast Lead -- Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant
7 Head of Military Intelligence Directorate Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin
8 Commander of Battalion 13 in the Golani Brigade Lt. Col. Oren Cohen
9 Deputy to the Givati Brigade Col. Ron Ashrov
10 Commander of the Israel Paratroopers' Brigade in Gaza Col. Hertzi Halevy
11 Commander of 401st Armored Corps Brigade convoy Col. Yigal Slovik
12 Commander of the 101st Battalion in the Paratrooper Brigade Lt. Col. Avi Blot
13 Lt. Col. Yoav Mordechai, who served as a commander of the Golani infantry brigade's 13th Battalion in Gaza
14 Givati squad commander Col. Tomer Tsiter
15 Brigade commander in Battalion 51 Col. Avi Peled
Press TV - Iran asks Interpol to arrest Israeli war criminals

**Axiom** · 03-02-2009, 10:30 PM

But who will try these elite criminals ?
HiddenMysteries ThE-Magazine

..but none dare call it conspiracy NONE DARE CALL IT CONSPIRACY********************* by Gary Allen

**antichrist** · 03-02-2009, 11:01 PM

I really hope some thing done about those war crimes - remember Israel dropped tens of thousands of cluster bombs in Lebanon, even disguising to make look like toys so children would pick them up

**Axiom** · 03-09-2009, 02:03 AM

Must Jews always see themselves as victims? - Middle East, World - The Independent

02-13-2009, 09:04 PM	#16 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,548	Originally Posted by Simon Understanding the dynamics of this latest conflict is a complex issue. I have very little sympathy for either side. Among the big ticket issues I have noticed: (a) There are motivations for the attacks. If there were no attacks on Israel, Israel wouldn't be going to war. By contrast, if there were absolutely no attacks on Palestinians, they would be killing civilians as a matter of policy. A/C Israel was created by Zionists grabing Palestinian land by terrorism, the Stern gang and others, i.e., they started the war 60 years ago and it has never stopped. Simon: The fundamental reason that many people support Israel is because they are not an unprovoked aggressor with no grievances. A/C Originally people supported Israel coz of the Holocaust by Nazi Germany. People without a sense of history may support Israel coz of the above reason. Isreal was the provateur 60 years ago when they used terrorism to get Palestine. Simon: (b) There is a general problem of a void in leadership having the authority to stop attacks on Israel. Therefore Israel continues to retaliate. A/C Newspaper reports state that somehow Israel encouraged the formation of Hamas to try to take support from the PLO via divide and rule. The PlO did carry out attacks on Israel and that is how they became popular. Simon: (c) Stopping the retaliating would't do anything. The people who want Israel destroyed aren't going to change their minds even if Israel never shoots and fires at anyone ever again. A complete cessation of violence by the Israelis would probably result in a massive escalation of violence against them. A/C Of course stopping retaliating wont stop anything - the Palestinians want their land back - just as Jews who had paintings stolen from by the Nazis 60 years ago still want them back. Simon: Again, this provides a strong reason for people to support Israel in their actions. A/C Well the tide has turned to a certain agree coz now many people support the Palestinian cause - whereas 40 years ago this was not the case at all. Simon: (d) Many of the other neighboring countries could do something about this if they wanted to. There is the issue of not enough land for the Palestinians. Well, I believe there are much larger countries in the area that could take them in and give them land. But many don't want to because they see the Palestinians as a way to undermine Israel. A/C The Palestinians living in those other countries are occupying those countries, and the Palestinians now in refugee camps were driven out and fled violence in Israel, but they still morally own land in Israel. And according to international law have the right to return that Israel has denied them for 60 years. If Arabs break international laws the US invades them - if Isreal does the same nothing happens. What racism! Simon: If Israel's neighbours hadn't tried to wipe them out I don't think we would have a problem we do today. The issue isn't that Israel is at fault, but rather that circumstances beyond their control now necessitate their attacks. A/C Well the reasons the neighbours tried to wipe them out was coz of trickery in setting up the state of Israel - esp on stolen land what does Israel expect? Simon What exactly does anyone you propose they do? Not defend themselves? Then they would all die because people want to kill them, and not necessarily because of anything they have done. Make peace deals? With whom? There's no functional Palestinian authority they can negotiate with. A/C The proposition is that Israel give the land back to the Palestinians - isn't that simple enough, they have only been asking for it back for 60 years. Israelis should vacate the land over a period of years or even decades so that the Palestinians can come back. What they have done is robbery and genocide. The breaking of many many international laws, that is war crimes and crimes against humanity. Only last week an Israeli journalist, Gideon Levy, said exactly the same thing, he listed about a dozen broken laws. A top bloke he is and could be made an honourary Palestinian and a hero. Simon: I do not think there is any resolution to this long standing conflict short of Israel moving or the Palestinian populace developing a functioning government which is willing to stop supporting terrorists. A/C A few years ago the Israeli demand was democracy for Palestine - as if Israeli really cared about democracy for Palestine whilst Israeli had stolen land and was killing them on a massive scale. Well Palestine had their elections and Hamas was elected - then Israel invades and imprisons many of the new representatives - no wonder they say there is no one to talk to - the elected representatives are in Israeli jails. For 2 years Israeli has blockaded Gaza - another crime against humanity - even many fair-minded Israeli Jews have seen the injustice of this and support the Palestinians. This is not at all a black and white issue at all in Isreal's favour.

02-13-2009, 10:16 PM	#17 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Originally Posted by antichrist A/C A few years ago the Israeli demand was democracy for Palestine - as if Israeli really cared about democracy for Palestine whilst Israeli had stolen land and was killing them on a massive scale. Well Palestine had their elections and Hamas was elected - then Israel invades and imprisons many of the new representatives - no wonder they say there is no one to talk to - the elected representatives are in Israeli jails. For 2 years Israeli has blockaded Gaza - another crime against humanity - even many fair-minded Israeli Jews have seen the injustice of this and support the Palestinians. This is not at all a black and white issue at all in Isreal's favour. Isn't history a wonderful teacher ? If only were people INFORMED.

02-15-2009, 04:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
Cephus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New Caprica Posts: 102	Originally Posted by antichrist A/C A few years ago the Israeli demand was democracy for Palestine - as if Israeli really cared about democracy for Palestine whilst Israeli had stolen land and was killing them on a massive scale. Well Palestine had their elections and Hamas was elected - then Israel invades and imprisons many of the new representatives - no wonder they say there is no one to talk to - the elected representatives are in Israeli jails. For 2 years Israeli has blockaded Gaza - another crime against humanity - even many fair-minded Israeli Jews have seen the injustice of this and support the Palestinians. This is not at all a black and white issue at all in Isreal's favour. Iagree because the Israeli version of things has hardly been vindicated. They admitted they shelled the school - that the school was, in fact their intended target. They even came up with reasons they felt shelling the school was necessary and issued numerous statements and press releases on the subject. So it makes little difference that they missed their target and instead slaughtered dozens of unarmed civilians or were lying about "returning fire" coming from inside the school and were in fact aiming for dozens of unarmed civilians.

02-17-2009, 06:29 PM	#20 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by antichrist Today's news is that hundreds of acres of West Bank land is being allowed for settlers from Israel - direct convention of all international law - and they reakon they want peace and justice - what bullshit. I hear you talk about all the problems, rarely do I hear you speak about solutions! __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

02-18-2009, 05:04 AM	#22 (permalink)
Jaz Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 87	Originally Posted by antichrist but if the UN and colonial forces gave your land to someone else and your people were attacked and driven in refugee camps and blown to smithereens whenever you tried to get it back, would you still have airy fairy delusions of peace and harmony???? What land? I have no land. I think thats why we have problems at the first place. Because we think we have land and that we ought to protect it. The same thing with the Gaza and Israel conflict. So make it peace, harmony, nature and no-land-ownership. Better? I hold no sympathy for those who fight, regardless of what sides.

02-17-2009, 06:15 PM	#19 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,548	Today's news is that hundreds of acres of West Bank land is being allowed for settlers from Israel - direct convention of all international law - and they reakon they want peace and justice - what bullshit.

02-18-2009, 12:30 AM	#21 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	A/C - some good articles on this topic at Jeff Rense Program

02-18-2009, 05:57 PM	#23 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,548	Originally Posted by Axiom A/C - some good articles on this topic at Jeff Rense Program thanks for reference

02-19-2009, 11:07 PM	#24 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by antichrist but if the UN and colonial forces gave your land to someone else and your people were attacked and driven in refugee camps and blown to smithereens whenever you tried to get it back, would you still have airy fairy delusions of peace and harmony???? How much land do they need? All of it? And where are the Israeli's supposed to live? __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

02-28-2009, 10:18 PM	#25 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,548	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One How much land do they need? All of it? And where are the Israeli's supposed to live? The Israelis can live in all the countries who have been supplying with weapons of war crimes for the past 60 years

03-01-2009, 11:41 AM	#26 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by antichrist The Israelis can live in all the countries who have been supplying with weapons of war crimes for the past 60 years War crimes? Didn't the war leading to the establishment of Israel end in the 60's? __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

03-02-2009, 10:19 PM	#27 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Iran asks Interpol to arrest Israeli war criminals Sun, 01 Mar 2009 23:36:57 GMT Tehran's Public Prosecutor Saeed Mortazavi Interpol begins studying Iran's request for the arrest of 15 senior Israeli officials over war crimes committed during the Gaza offensive. At a news briefing on Sunday, Tehran's Public Prosecutor, Saeed Mortazavi, said that Iran had referred the case to the International Criminal Police Organization (ICPO or Interpol), drawing on the organization's charter and Israel's violation of the Geneva Conventions. "Governments of 180 countries have received the information necessary for identifying the suspects," he said. In a Monday statement, Iran's judiciary said that it has asked Interpol to issue an international Red Notice security alert for the 15 Israeli officials who were involved in the 23-day Israeli offensive on Gaza. The statement added that the judiciary was also looking into complaints made against 100 other Israelis, with top military and government posts. In December 2008, Iran's judicial body announced a decision to set up a court to investigate complaints, made by wounded Gazans against Israel and delivered to Iran by the Palestinian envoy. The judiciary said that it would be ready to try the implicated Israeli officials in absentia. "In the current week, we have completed our investigation of about 15 individuals who were among those criminals," IRIB, Iran's State Television, quoted Mortazavi as saying. "Based on our investigation and according to article 2 of the Interpol charter, we asked Interpol to arrest these suspects." Mortazavi said the charges included war crimes, invasion, occupation, genocide and crimes against humanity. The Iranian prosecutor was referring to Israeli strikes that started on December 27 on the densely populated Palestinian coastal territory and did not end until it had claimed the lives of more than 1,330 Gazans, mostly civilians. Many international NGOs and human rights organizations, Palestinians wounded in the Gaza onslaught, more than 5,700 Iranian lawyers and attorneys in the Iranian Bar Association along with a large number of medics were also among those who filed complaints against Tel Aviv, Mortazavi added. The list of Israeli war criminals includes: 1 Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert 2 Defense Minister Ehud Barak 3 Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni 4 Chief of the General Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi 5 Commander in Chief of the Israeli Air Force Ido Nehoshtan 6 Commander of the Gaza war -- Operation Cast Lead -- Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant 7 Head of Military Intelligence Directorate Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin 8 Commander of Battalion 13 in the Golani Brigade Lt. Col. Oren Cohen 9 Deputy to the Givati Brigade Col. Ron Ashrov 10 Commander of the Israel Paratroopers' Brigade in Gaza Col. Hertzi Halevy 11 Commander of 401st Armored Corps Brigade convoy Col. Yigal Slovik 12 Commander of the 101st Battalion in the Paratrooper Brigade Lt. Col. Avi Blot 13 Lt. Col. Yoav Mordechai, who served as a commander of the Golani infantry brigade's 13th Battalion in Gaza 14 Givati squad commander Col. Tomer Tsiter 15 Brigade commander in Battalion 51 Col. Avi Peled Press TV - Iran asks Interpol to arrest Israeli war criminals

03-02-2009, 10:30 PM	#28 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	But who will try these elite criminals ? HiddenMysteries ThE-Magazine ..but none dare call it conspiracy NONE DARE CALL IT CONSPIRACY********************* by Gary Allen

03-02-2009, 11:01 PM	#29 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,548	I really hope some thing done about those war crimes - remember Israel dropped tens of thousands of cluster bombs in Lebanon, even disguising to make look like toys so children would pick them up

03-09-2009, 02:03 AM	#30 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Must Jews always see themselves as victims? - Middle East, World - The Independent

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