God Related Discussions - Page 11 - OzChess

**Just2Good** · 01-27-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Powell

Who created God?

God always existed, and hence there was no need for Him to be created.

Originally Posted by Bill Powell

Who created the stuff he/she used to create the world?

God himself created everything He needed for the universe's creation.

Originally Posted by Bill Powell

Come on AO, God is in the mind,

Yes, He is in the mind. He is everywhere you can think of in fact (omnipresent and omnipotent).

Originally Posted by Bill Powell

created by man to keep the tribe in line so the Leader could rule.

Some men have created rules they proclaim are God's will and they do try to find others to submit to these rules/beliefs. But that's quite beside the point that God actually exists.

Best

AO

**Iconoclast** · 01-27-2008, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

God always existed, and hence there was no need for Him to be created.

So his existence extends infinitely backwards in time. Therefore, for an infinite amount of time, he did not create the universe. And then he did create it.
Now, if something takes an infinite amount of time to occur, then in fact, it will never occur. Thus the Universe would not have been created. But, it is here. Sorry, but your god cannot have "always existed."

God himself created everything He needed for the universe's creation.

And it took until infinity for him to decide to do so, so he could not have done so, because nothing gets to the point of infinity.

Yes, He is in the mind. He is everywhere you can think of in fact (omnipresent and omnipotent).

He isn't in my mind, but then again, I am not schizophrenic.

**Iconoclast** · 01-27-2008, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

He is everywhere you can think of in fact (omnipresent and omnipotent)

If god sees evil and and does not stop it using his omnipotence, then he is a malevolent god, a devil.

If god sees evil and cannot stop it then he is not omnipotent, and cannot be called god.

**Iconoclast** · 01-27-2008, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

Dr Safarti is highly and fully qualified academically. ... He deserves your respect.

In science, as in sport, you are only respected while you are playing by the rules. When it comes to his creation science, Safarti is either a fraudulent liar or mentally disordered - take your pick.

**Just2Good** · 01-27-2008, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

God always existed, and hence there was no need for Him to be created.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

So his existence extends infinitely backwards in time. Therefore, for an infinite amount of time, he did not create the universe.

This doesn't quite make sense to me Icono. I think you are saying that there was a period of time when God existed and the universe did not, and if so I agree with you.

Let me try and simplfy it like this:

-------------------------God----------------------------->

Think of the arrow as a timeline with the > being the present day. God is found in each dash (for the purposes of the diagram I have listed Him in the middle). If you move to the left backwards in time as far as you want to go, you will NEVER reach a dash when God was not present or alive. You may reach a point when God created the universe and our existence, but NEVER a time when God himself did not exist.

Any further questions?

**Just2Good** · 01-27-2008, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

In science, as in sport, you are only respected while you are playing by the rules. When it comes to his creation science, Safarti is either a fraudulent liar or mentally disordered - take your pick.

Now you've fallen into the same pit I'm trying to liberate Barry from. Must be something in Wollongong's water. Well, good news is that I have 2 arms. Grab ahold boys

**Iconoclast** · 01-27-2008, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

This doesn't quite make sense to me Icono. I think you are saying that there was a period of time when God existed and the universe did not, and if so I agree with you.

Let me try and simplfy it like this:

-------------------------God----------------------------->

Think of the arrow as a timeline with the > being the present day. God is found in each dash (for the purposes of the diagram I have listed Him in the middle). If you move to the left backwards in time as far as you want to go, you will NEVER reach a dash when God was not present or alive. You may reach a point when God created the universe and our existence, but NEVER a time when God himself did not exist.

Any further questions?

Yes. I choose to look at a point in the infinite past where your gods is. From that point in the infinite past, there is an infinity of time back to the present. since nothing can actually get to a point that is in the infinite future - ie the present from the infinite past - god cannot get to the present where he supposedly created the universe.

The simple logical implication is that either:
1. God was created in the finite past from where he can get to the present, or
2. God has existed forever but he did not create the universe.

He cannot be both beggingless and the creater. One or the other.

**Just2Good** · 01-27-2008, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

From that point in the infinite past, there is an infinity of time back to the present.

No there isn't! Its like taking a piece of string which runs forever, you find a point (in the infinite past) and put a clothes pin on that point, then you find another point 'back to the present' as you referred to it, and put a clothes pin there too, and now you have a finite measurable period on an infinite piece of string.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

The simple logical implication is that either:
1. God was created in the finite past from where he can get to the present, or
2. God has existed forever but he did not create the universe.

He cannot be both ...

What?

The proposition I've put forth is that God has existed eternally. Sometime during His eternity he decided to create the Universe, and did so. God exists in the present and has existed in the past.

**Iconoclast** · 01-27-2008, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

No there isn't! Its like taking a piece of string which runs forever, you find a point (in the infinite past) and put a clothes pin on that point, then you find another point 'back to the present' as you referred to it, and put a clothes pin there too, and now you have a finite measurable period on an infinite piece of string.

OK. No matter how far backward, x, you put the first pin, I will ask about the point, x+1. In that way I can ask about a point further and further back, to infinity. I am asking how an entity gets from an infinity ago, to the present. It cannot. God cannot. He cannot have created the universe if he always existed.

The proposition I've put forth is that God has existed eternally. Sometime during His eternity he decided to create the Universe, and did so.

First assume that your god is perfect, and has always been perfect. OK?
Then his state before he created the universe was, perfection. OK?
Then something changed in his state that caused him to create the universe. OK?
Therefore his state changed to something different from the previous state. OK?
That new state must be different from perfection, else it cannot be a different state.
Therefore, in creating the universe, god became something different from prefect.

So, god can either have created the universe or be perfect, but not both.

**Just2Good** · 01-27-2008, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

OK. No matter how far backward, x, you put the first pin, I will ask about the point, x+1. In that way I can ask about a point further and further back, to infinity. I am asking how an entity gets from an infinity ago, to the present. It cannot. God cannot. He cannot have created the universe if he always existed.

I am just not understanding the argument you are making. Try giving more description to +1. Lets use an example.

We go back to 25 January 1995. This is where we put our first clothes pin (in the past) on the timeline. Now what? How from choosing this date can you say God doesn't exist today? My argument is that God existed on 25 January 1995 and that he continues to exist today, just like you and me.

**Rex** · 01-28-2008, 04:05 PM

Cargo Cult came about after world war 2. The USA Air Force occupied a remote area in New Guinea, the natives had never seen white man. After they left the natives did not see a white man for another 20 years. When White man came again, the natives had a new religion, they had placed rocks along the runway and painted them white. They made a mock up plane made form straw. They looked to the skies and prayed for the GODS to return.

When asked why they called the USA Air force personal “GODS”, they replied, only Gods can fly, we never seen them hunt for food so only Gods can live without hunting. They came from the sky and left by the sky, so they are GODS.
Just think, after thousands of years if the Jews were visited by a superior race could that not be the foundation of GOD as we know it today?

Before replying please read The Chariots of the Gods by Erich Van Daniken.
For those that still believe in God please open that steel trap door mind of yours and look around and try and see the other side.

**Iconoclast** · 01-28-2008, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Rex

Before replying please read The Chariots of the Gods by Erich Van Daniken.

I read that 30 years ago. It sits in my library in the humour section between "Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy" and "Faulty Towers."

**blank frank** · 01-29-2008, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

In science, as in sport, you are only respected while you are playing by the rules. When it comes to his creation science, Safarti is either a fraudulent liar or mentally disordered - take your pick.

I've seen some of his posts and to me they do seem a little mentally disordered. I can also pull a little rank here because I'm an A/Prof in medicine so that gives me some legitimacy in mental disordered thingys, but I'm only going on his CC persona.

**Just2Good** · 01-29-2008, 01:53 PM

I think we have reached the point where some people in medical science consider that anyone who is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or other member of organized religion to be mentally imbalanced.

For this and other reasons I have to a considerable degree lost faith in Australia's organized medical establishment. If they did not have a monopoly on prescribing drugs they would be almost totally irrelevent as anyone with half a brain could educate themselves online as to what medications would assist their ailments/illnesses, and then run off to the chemist and obtain those drugs bypassing the useless doctors visit altogether.

Best,

AO

ps- Sorry if that sounds confrontational, its not aimed at you but rather at the establishment.

**Iconoclast** · 01-29-2008, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I think we have reached the point where some people in medical science consider that anyone who is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or other member of organized religion to be mentally imbalanced.

I don't. Not everyone who is religious is nuts - only the ones who ought to know know better - the ones with an education based in science.

I have to a considerable degree lost faith in Australia's organized medical establishment.

A different thread, maybe?

01-27-2008, 08:43 PM	#151 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	God Exists as Much as You Do! Originally Posted by Bill Powell Who created God? God always existed, and hence there was no need for Him to be created. Originally Posted by Bill Powell Who created the stuff he/she used to create the world? God himself created everything He needed for the universe's creation. Originally Posted by Bill Powell Come on AO, God is in the mind, Yes, He is in the mind. He is everywhere you can think of in fact (omnipresent and omnipotent). Originally Posted by Bill Powell created by man to keep the tribe in line so the Leader could rule. Some men have created rules they proclaim are God's will and they do try to find others to submit to these rules/beliefs. But that's quite beside the point that God actually exists. Best AO __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

01-27-2008, 09:02 PM	#152 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One God always existed, and hence there was no need for Him to be created. So his existence extends infinitely backwards in time. Therefore, for an infinite amount of time, he did not create the universe. And then he did create it. Now, if something takes an infinite amount of time to occur, then in fact, it will never occur. Thus the Universe would not have been created. But, it is here. Sorry, but your god cannot have "always existed." God himself created everything He needed for the universe's creation. And it took until infinity for him to decide to do so, so he could not have done so, because nothing gets to the point of infinity. Yes, He is in the mind. He is everywhere you can think of in fact (omnipresent and omnipotent). He isn't in my mind, but then again, I am not schizophrenic. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

01-27-2008, 09:09 PM	#153 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One He is everywhere you can think of in fact (omnipresent and omnipotent) If god sees evil and and does not stop it using his omnipotence, then he is a malevolent god, a devil. If god sees evil and cannot stop it then he is not omnipotent, and cannot be called god. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

01-27-2008, 09:19 PM	#154 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One Dr Safarti is highly and fully qualified academically. ... He deserves your respect. In science, as in sport, you are only respected while you are playing by the rules. When it comes to his creation science, Safarti is either a fraudulent liar or mentally disordered - take your pick. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

01-27-2008, 09:43 PM	#155 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	God Has Existed Forever and Will Continue to Exist Forever Originally Posted by Arrogant-One God always existed, and hence there was no need for Him to be created. Originally Posted by Iconoclast So his existence extends infinitely backwards in time. Therefore, for an infinite amount of time, he did not create the universe. This doesn't quite make sense to me Icono. I think you are saying that there was a period of time when God existed and the universe did not, and if so I agree with you. Let me try and simplfy it like this: -------------------------God-----------------------------> Think of the arrow as a timeline with the > being the present day. God is found in each dash (for the purposes of the diagram I have listed Him in the middle). If you move to the left backwards in time as far as you want to go, you will NEVER reach a dash when God was not present or alive. You may reach a point when God created the universe and our existence, but NEVER a time when God himself did not exist. Any further questions? __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

01-27-2008, 09:56 PM	#156 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Help is on the Way! Originally Posted by Iconoclast In science, as in sport, you are only respected while you are playing by the rules. When it comes to his creation science, Safarti is either a fraudulent liar or mentally disordered - take your pick. Now you've fallen into the same pit I'm trying to liberate Barry from. Must be something in Wollongong's water. Well, good news is that I have 2 arms. Grab ahold boys __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

01-27-2008, 10:18 PM	#157 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One This doesn't quite make sense to me Icono. I think you are saying that there was a period of time when God existed and the universe did not, and if so I agree with you. Let me try and simplfy it like this: -------------------------God-----------------------------> Think of the arrow as a timeline with the > being the present day. God is found in each dash (for the purposes of the diagram I have listed Him in the middle). If you move to the left backwards in time as far as you want to go, you will NEVER reach a dash when God was not present or alive. You may reach a point when God created the universe and our existence, but NEVER a time when God himself did not exist. Any further questions? Yes. I choose to look at a point in the infinite past where your gods is. From that point in the infinite past, there is an infinity of time back to the present. since nothing can actually get to a point that is in the infinite future - ie the present from the infinite past - god cannot get to the present where he supposedly created the universe. The simple logical implication is that either: 1. God was created in the finite past from where he can get to the present, or 2. God has existed forever but he did not create the universe. He cannot be both beggingless and the creater. One or the other. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

01-27-2008, 10:53 PM	#158 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Periods Can be Measured Originally Posted by Iconoclast From that point in the infinite past, there is an infinity of time back to the present. No there isn't! Its like taking a piece of string which runs forever, you find a point (in the infinite past) and put a clothes pin on that point, then you find another point 'back to the present' as you referred to it, and put a clothes pin there too, and now you have a finite measurable period on an infinite piece of string. Originally Posted by Iconoclast The simple logical implication is that either: 1. God was created in the finite past from where he can get to the present, or 2. God has existed forever but he did not create the universe. He cannot be both ... What? The proposition I've put forth is that God has existed eternally. Sometime during His eternity he decided to create the Universe, and did so. God exists in the present and has existed in the past. __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

01-27-2008, 11:20 PM	#159 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One No there isn't! Its like taking a piece of string which runs forever, you find a point (in the infinite past) and put a clothes pin on that point, then you find another point 'back to the present' as you referred to it, and put a clothes pin there too, and now you have a finite measurable period on an infinite piece of string. OK. No matter how far backward, x, you put the first pin, I will ask about the point, x+1. In that way I can ask about a point further and further back, to infinity. I am asking how an entity gets from an infinity ago, to the present. It cannot. God cannot. He cannot have created the universe if he always existed. The proposition I've put forth is that God has existed eternally. Sometime during His eternity he decided to create the Universe, and did so. First assume that your god is perfect, and has always been perfect. OK? Then his state before he created the universe was, perfection. OK? Then something changed in his state that caused him to create the universe. OK? Therefore his state changed to something different from the previous state. OK? That new state must be different from perfection, else it cannot be a different state. Therefore, in creating the universe, god became something different from prefect. So, god can either have created the universe or be perfect, but not both. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

01-27-2008, 11:40 PM	#160 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Lets try an example Originally Posted by Iconoclast OK. No matter how far backward, x, you put the first pin, I will ask about the point, x+1. In that way I can ask about a point further and further back, to infinity. I am asking how an entity gets from an infinity ago, to the present. It cannot. God cannot. He cannot have created the universe if he always existed. I am just not understanding the argument you are making. Try giving more description to +1. Lets use an example. We go back to 25 January 1995. This is where we put our first clothes pin (in the past) on the timeline. Now what? How from choosing this date can you say God doesn't exist today? My argument is that God existed on 25 January 1995 and that he continues to exist today, just like you and me. __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

01-28-2008, 04:05 PM	#161 (permalink)
Rex Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 73	How God came About? Cargo Cult came about after world war 2. The USA Air Force occupied a remote area in New Guinea, the natives had never seen white man. After they left the natives did not see a white man for another 20 years. When White man came again, the natives had a new religion, they had placed rocks along the runway and painted them white. They made a mock up plane made form straw. They looked to the skies and prayed for the GODS to return. When asked why they called the USA Air force personal “GODS”, they replied, only Gods can fly, we never seen them hunt for food so only Gods can live without hunting. They came from the sky and left by the sky, so they are GODS. Just think, after thousands of years if the Jews were visited by a superior race could that not be the foundation of GOD as we know it today? Before replying please read The Chariots of the Gods by Erich Van Daniken. For those that still believe in God please open that steel trap door mind of yours and look around and try and see the other side.

01-28-2008, 10:00 PM	#162 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Rex Before replying please read The Chariots of the Gods by Erich Van Daniken. I read that 30 years ago. It sits in my library in the humour section between "Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy" and "Faulty Towers." __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

01-29-2008, 12:16 PM	#163 (permalink)
blank frank Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 70	Originally Posted by Iconoclast In science, as in sport, you are only respected while you are playing by the rules. When it comes to his creation science, Safarti is either a fraudulent liar or mentally disordered - take your pick. I've seen some of his posts and to me they do seem a little mentally disordered. I can also pull a little rank here because I'm an A/Prof in medicine so that gives me some legitimacy in mental disordered thingys, but I'm only going on his CC persona.

01-29-2008, 01:53 PM	#164 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	The Medical Profession's Irrelevancy I think we have reached the point where some people in medical science consider that anyone who is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or other member of organized religion to be mentally imbalanced. For this and other reasons I have to a considerable degree lost faith in Australia's organized medical establishment. If they did not have a monopoly on prescribing drugs they would be almost totally irrelevent as anyone with half a brain could educate themselves online as to what medications would assist their ailments/illnesses, and then run off to the chemist and obtain those drugs bypassing the useless doctors visit altogether. Best, AO ps- Sorry if that sounds confrontational, its not aimed at you but rather at the establishment. __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

01-29-2008, 04:59 PM	#165 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I think we have reached the point where some people in medical science consider that anyone who is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or other member of organized religion to be mentally imbalanced. I don't. Not everyone who is religious is nuts - only the ones who ought to know know better - the ones with an education based in science. I have to a considerable degree lost faith in Australia's organized medical establishment. A different thread, maybe? __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

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