The Value of Teachers - OzChess

**Just2Good** · 05-26-2008, 01:49 PM

The Business Council of Australia is now proposing that some teachers make up to $130,000 per annum. All I can say is get real!

Most university professors are on less than that and they tend to have more academic qualifications. The fact is that teachers are actually well paid, perhaps excessively so, already.

The extended vacations they get through various times of the year, in addition to a salary of around $70,000 pa for most, and a work day that often ends around 3pm, maybe 3:30 at some schools, should make teaching an attractive career option in its own right.

The BCA should perhaps reconsider these aspects before making ridiculous suggestions that will never be approved by any state government.

**Iconoclast** · 05-26-2008, 03:27 PM

If teaching was such an easy job with such high pay, why is it so difficult to recruit more people into teaching? Maybe the employment conditions ain't so good and the pay ain't so great.

**Just2Good** · 05-26-2008, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

If teaching was such an easy job with such high pay, why is it so difficult to recruit more people into teaching? Maybe the employment conditions ain't so good and the pay ain't so great.

No one said it was an 'easy job', I just stated the benefits of extended holidays compared with other professions and the reasonably good pay compared to the average Aussie battler. Teacher recruitment is hampered by several factors, not the least of which are:

(a) No vacancies in the major cities, thereby forcing people to teach in whoop whoop when they'd prefer the big cities;

(b) Better pay at the private schools;

(c) University students chasing better money in other professions (ie. Chiropracic medicine); and

(c) The fact the government isn't putting much effort in 'selling' the attractive aspects of a teaching career.

If teaching started to pay anywhere near $130K per year, even Kevin Bonham would put his hand up for the full time employment opportunity that has eluded him for most of his life.

Best

AO

**Iconoclast** · 05-26-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

(a) No vacancies in the major cities, thereby forcing people to teach in whoop whoop when they'd prefer the big cities;

So, the pay is not enough to attract people to to sticks

(b) Better pay at the private schools;

So the pay is not enough to attract people to the public schools

(c) University students chasing better money in other professions (ie. Chiropracic medicine);

So the pay cannot compete with other professions.

and

(c) The fact the government isn't putting much effort in 'selling' the attractive aspects of a teaching career.

So the government cannot sell the idea of teaching because the career pay cannot compete.

If teaching started to pay anywhere near $130K per year, even Kevin Bonham would put his hand up for the full time employment opportunity that has eluded him for most of his life.

Bonham wouldn't last a year before a student hit him with a metal ruler.

Look AO, it is a simple fact, if you cannot get enough employees for the money you are offering, then the pay is not enough for the work and conditions of the job. There is no need to compare holidays or super or comfy chairs or heat stress or isolation or anything else. The fact is, if you don't pay enough, you won't attract the employees you need or want.

There are enough qualified and good teachers in Australia, the trouble is, many of them are doing other jobs now with better conditions for better money.

**Firegoat7** · 05-28-2008, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

Nor should it. It takes longer to qualify as a medical doctor, lawyer, engineer, chiropractor, etc, then it does to qualify as a teacher. Of course that needs to be reflected in the pay.

Why should it be reflected in the pay?

cheers Fg7

**Fischer-Fan** · 05-30-2008, 12:48 PM

most teachers i had don't really give a stuff about their students, they are just there to teach and then go home and its another day at the office. lots of teachers do extra activities like rowing and that sort of sport, but at the end of the day they even only do that because its part of the job, not because they have a genuine or true interest in those kind of activities. even still though, i have had a handful of teachers i would say were really good.

**Iconoclast** · 06-01-2008, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Fischer-Fan

most teachers i had don't really give a stuff about their students,

How much of "a stuff" should they give ??? Nine out of ten teachers who I know would/do give up plenty of time and effort to those students who "give a stuff." Unfortunately, that is about one student in ten.

What would you expect of any other professional? Doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses: they will all walk over hot coals for those who SEEK and NEED help. The rest are just, ..... well ..... they are not worth the effort. If they do not "seek" the help they are not ready to use it, and only waste it. If they do not "need" the help, they will do fine regardless.

Professionals are not saints, so, they save who they can. I try to do that.

May I suggest this:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/ Search/find "teachers' pay"

**YumYum** · 06-01-2008, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

How much of "a stuff" should they give ??? Nine out of ten teachers who I know would/do give up plenty of time and effort to those students who "give a stuff." Unfortunately, that is about one student in ten.

What would you expect of any other professional? Doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses: they will all walk over hot coals for those who SEEK and NEED help. The rest are just, ..... well ..... they are not worth the effort. If they do not "seek" the help they are not ready to use it, and only waste it. If they do not "need" the help, they will do fine regardless.

Professionals are not saints, so, they save who they can. I try to do that.

May I suggest this:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/ Search/find "teachers' pay"

In the olden days teachers cared about their students a lot more than they do today. Then some politician got the idea that making teachers do extra curricular was the way to show voters that they were getting better bang for their tax dollar. I think that's when things started to go downhill.

**Iconoclast** · 06-02-2008, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by YumYum

In the olden days teachers cared about their students a lot more than they do today. Then some politician got the idea that making teachers do extra curricular was the way to show voters that they were getting better bang for their tax dollar. I think that's when things started to go downhill.

I am not sure that this is right - although you might be onto something. I think what has happened, as a generality:
Teachers used to care more about exam results than the life long outcome.
Teachers now care more about the life long outcome than the exam results.
Students used to care about the exam results and getting a job.
Student now don't care about anything.
Parents used to care about their children's behaviour.
Parents now only care about the teachers' behaviour.
Governments used to care about being re-elected.
Governments now care about being re-elected.

**Iconoclast** · 06-02-2008, 08:05 PM

Listen to the pod cast / streaming radio on radio National here. It is Called Teachers' Pay. IT will only be there for another week.

**vagrantnomad** · 06-04-2008, 08:58 PM

i belive teachers should have better pay , teachers may understand math so ill lay it down like this- better pay for teachers = better smarter people gettings teacher jobs .

not a real hard thing to work out !!! (AO if the money is right people will do what they have to .....$$$$$$$$$ )oh yeah dollar time for the teachers .

**Euro-Chess** · 06-14-2008, 12:28 PM

In the Netherlands professors get paid on a per graduated student basis. While that sounds like a good idea, it means that no matter how bad you are they will try to push you through. It might be worth considering an adaption to this for Australian teachers, maybe paying teachers per graduated school student but having a standard end of term multiple choice test to ensure the students really are up to standard when they graduate.

View Poll Results: Are public school teachers fairly renumerated for the work they do?
Yes!	2	28.57%
No!	4	57.14%
I don't know/ maybe / decline to answer	1	14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

05-26-2008, 01:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	The Value of Teachers The Business Council of Australia is now proposing that some teachers make up to $130,000 per annum. All I can say is get real! Most university professors are on less than that and they tend to have more academic qualifications. The fact is that teachers are actually well paid, perhaps excessively so, already. The extended vacations they get through various times of the year, in addition to a salary of around $70,000 pa for most, and a work day that often ends around 3pm, maybe 3:30 at some schools, should make teaching an attractive career option in its own right. The BCA should perhaps reconsider these aspects before making ridiculous suggestions that will never be approved by any state government. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

05-26-2008, 03:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	If teaching was such an easy job with such high pay, why is it so difficult to recruit more people into teaching? Maybe the employment conditions ain't so good and the pay ain't so great. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

05-26-2008, 05:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Many Factors to Consider Originally Posted by Iconoclast If teaching was such an easy job with such high pay, why is it so difficult to recruit more people into teaching? Maybe the employment conditions ain't so good and the pay ain't so great. No one said it was an 'easy job', I just stated the benefits of extended holidays compared with other professions and the reasonably good pay compared to the average Aussie battler. Teacher recruitment is hampered by several factors, not the least of which are: (a) No vacancies in the major cities, thereby forcing people to teach in whoop whoop when they'd prefer the big cities; (b) Better pay at the private schools; (c) University students chasing better money in other professions (ie. Chiropracic medicine); and (c) The fact the government isn't putting much effort in 'selling' the attractive aspects of a teaching career. If teaching started to pay anywhere near $130K per year, even Kevin Bonham would put his hand up for the full time employment opportunity that has eluded him for most of his life. Best AO __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

05-26-2008, 08:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One (a) No vacancies in the major cities, thereby forcing people to teach in whoop whoop when they'd prefer the big cities; So, the pay is not enough to attract people to to sticks (b) Better pay at the private schools; So the pay is not enough to attract people to the public schools (c) University students chasing better money in other professions (ie. Chiropracic medicine); So the pay cannot compete with other professions. and (c) The fact the government isn't putting much effort in 'selling' the attractive aspects of a teaching career. So the government cannot sell the idea of teaching because the career pay cannot compete. If teaching started to pay anywhere near $130K per year, even Kevin Bonham would put his hand up for the full time employment opportunity that has eluded him for most of his life. Bonham wouldn't last a year before a student hit him with a metal ruler. Look AO, it is a simple fact, if you cannot get enough employees for the money you are offering, then the pay is not enough for the work and conditions of the job. There is no need to compare holidays or super or comfy chairs or heat stress or isolation or anything else. The fact is, if you don't pay enough, you won't attract the employees you need or want. There are enough qualified and good teachers in Australia, the trouble is, many of them are doing other jobs now with better conditions for better money. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

05-28-2008, 01:09 AM	#5 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One Nor should it. It takes longer to qualify as a medical doctor, lawyer, engineer, chiropractor, etc, then it does to qualify as a teacher. Of course that needs to be reflected in the pay. Why should it be reflected in the pay? cheers Fg7 __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

05-30-2008, 12:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
Fischer-Fan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Perth Posts: 152	most teachers i had don't really give a stuff about their students, they are just there to teach and then go home and its another day at the office. lots of teachers do extra activities like rowing and that sort of sport, but at the end of the day they even only do that because its part of the job, not because they have a genuine or true interest in those kind of activities. even still though, i have had a handful of teachers i would say were really good. __________________ Patzer see check, patzer give check! - Bobby Fischer

06-01-2008, 01:13 AM	#7 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Fischer-Fan most teachers i had don't really give a stuff about their students, How much of "a stuff" should they give ??? Nine out of ten teachers who I know would/do give up plenty of time and effort to those students who "give a stuff." Unfortunately, that is about one student in ten. What would you expect of any other professional? Doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses: they will all walk over hot coals for those who SEEK and NEED help. The rest are just, ..... well ..... they are not worth the effort. If they do not "seek" the help they are not ready to use it, and only waste it. If they do not "need" the help, they will do fine regardless. Professionals are not saints, so, they save who they can. I try to do that. May I suggest this: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/ Search/find "teachers' pay" __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

06-01-2008, 01:01 PM	#8 (permalink)
YumYum Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 112	Originally Posted by Iconoclast How much of "a stuff" should they give ??? Nine out of ten teachers who I know would/do give up plenty of time and effort to those students who "give a stuff." Unfortunately, that is about one student in ten. What would you expect of any other professional? Doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses: they will all walk over hot coals for those who SEEK and NEED help. The rest are just, ..... well ..... they are not worth the effort. If they do not "seek" the help they are not ready to use it, and only waste it. If they do not "need" the help, they will do fine regardless. Professionals are not saints, so, they save who they can. I try to do that. May I suggest this: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/ Search/find "teachers' pay" In the olden days teachers cared about their students a lot more than they do today. Then some politician got the idea that making teachers do extra curricular was the way to show voters that they were getting better bang for their tax dollar. I think that's when things started to go downhill. __________________ Panda is what the world was waiting for!

06-02-2008, 08:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by YumYum In the olden days teachers cared about their students a lot more than they do today. Then some politician got the idea that making teachers do extra curricular was the way to show voters that they were getting better bang for their tax dollar. I think that's when things started to go downhill. I am not sure that this is right - although you might be onto something. I think what has happened, as a generality: Teachers used to care more about exam results than the life long outcome. Teachers now care more about the life long outcome than the exam results. Students used to care about the exam results and getting a job. Student now don't care about anything. Parents used to care about their children's behaviour. Parents now only care about the teachers' behaviour. Governments used to care about being re-elected. Governments now care about being re-elected. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

06-02-2008, 08:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Listen to the pod cast / streaming radio on radio National here. It is Called Teachers' Pay. IT will only be there for another week. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

06-04-2008, 08:58 PM	#11 (permalink)
vagrantnomad Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: qld at the moment Posts: 272	i belive teachers should have better pay , teachers may understand math so ill lay it down like this- better pay for teachers = better smarter people gettings teacher jobs . not a real hard thing to work out !!! (AO if the money is right people will do what they have to .....$$$$$$$$$ )oh yeah dollar time for the teachers . Last edited by vagrantnomad : 06-04-2008 at 09:00 PM Reason: i had too add in a couple more $$$'s

06-14-2008, 12:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
Euro-Chess Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney, NSW Posts: 126	In the Netherlands professors get paid on a per graduated student basis. While that sounds like a good idea, it means that no matter how bad you are they will try to push you through. It might be worth considering an adaption to this for Australian teachers, maybe paying teachers per graduated school student but having a standard end of term multiple choice test to ensure the students really are up to standard when they graduate. __________________ “When you see a good move, look for a better one” - Emanuel Lasker

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread: