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Old 02-13-2008, 05:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Indigenous Australian Issues

Greetings,


A quick little observation by the goat.
Freedom of Expression is a great thing, it allows people to speak their mind. But,more importantly, it also allows other people to get insights into other peoples minds. That is, you get the balanced with the insane. Recently, however, I believe Chesschat stooped to unrecorded levels of a new low (if that was possible).

This has to be the worst thread I have ever seen on Chesschat.
http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=7672

Notice there is no censorship? I can't figure it out either. Anyway.

Some quick observations on the politics of fear.

Jono is simply insane. I don't think a Sweeney or a Toolsie ever posted anything as disgusting as the prejudiced claptrap that comes out of this fools mouth.
Igor Goldenberg is incredibly naive and uninformed.

Duggan and Gray I just roll my eyes. I have given up bothering to understand them.


Michael Baron would have to be one of the worst judge of minority rights I have ever met. In real life, Michael is a great guy, but for goodness sake he is a complete hypocrite and he needs a friend like me to tell him to get a clue. Michael there is only one race, its called the human race. Everything else is a prejudiced classification system designed by human beings.

In this decade German companies have been forced to compensate Jewish people who were forced to work as slaves during the holocaust. This is because a minority group was categorised and discriminated against by the Nazi's the political power at the time. Thankfully Germany is attempting to come to terms with its history.


Similarly, past White Australian governments deliberately removed children from Indigenous parents because they believed Indigenous cultures would be wiped out. Official public policy was to remove children off mixed marriage and turn them into "whiteys"

Now Michael, you should be able to understand why its is important for Australia to recognise its past and offer an apology. If you don't, get better informed because otherwise you simply sound like a racist redneck. I for one know that you are not that type of a person. Use your brain and think before your speak.

cheers fg7

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Old 02-13-2008, 07:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Tough Issue to Reconcile For Some

Great post Firegoat7! I did like your take on this, although it probably belongs in a separate thread. Let me quickly respond to some of your points.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Jono is simply insane.
I am not prepared to make that judgement though I very much disagree with his first post. Please keep in mind some Australians, like Jono, are very frustrated with recurring problems in Aboriginal communities and lash out not so much out of hatred or malevolence, but rather they lash out because of frustration.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
I don't think a Sweeney or a Toolsie ever posted anything as disgusting as the prejudiced claptrap that comes out of this fools mouth.
Contrary to what the CC establishment may have claimed I have never made a disgusting post, and have never seen one made by Matt (although I have seen and authored some objectionable posts, but there is a distinction between an objectionable post and a disgusting one).
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Igor Goldenberg is incredibly naive and uninformed. Duggan and Gray I just roll my eyes. I have given up bothering to understand them.
This sounds like the start of wisdom Firegoat7.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Michael Baron would have to be one of the worst judge of minority rights I have ever met.
I think Michael's second post was actually sarcastic, and not intended to be taken seriously.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
In this decade German companies have been forced to compensate Jewish people who were forced to work as slaves during the holocaust. This is because a minority group was categorised and discriminated against by the Nazi's the political power at the time. Thankfully Germany is attempting to come to terms with its history.
Actually, in my view Germany has gone from being the most racist country 5 decades ago to being the least racist today, even surpassing countries like Australia and Canada along the way. To further evidence the point that Australia still has work to do in routing out racism, it is important to note that Australia did not really make an official apology of its own pre-emptive initiative. Rather it likely did so because last year Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper made a formal apology to Chinese Canadians for the head tax of the early 1900's.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:03 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Greetings,


A quick little observation by the goat.
Freedom of Expression is a great thing, it allows people to speak their mind. But,more importantly, it also allows other people to get insights into other peoples minds. That is, you get the balanced with the insane. Recently, however, I believe Chesschat stooped to unrecorded levels of a new low (if that was possible).

This has to be the worst thread I have ever seen on Chesschat.
http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=7672

Notice there is no censorship? I can't figure it out either. Anyway.

Some quick observations on the politics of fear.

Jono is simply insane. I don't think a Sweeney or a Toolsie ever posted anything as disgusting as the prejudiced claptrap that comes out of this fools mouth.
Igor Goldenberg is incredibly naive and uninformed.

Duggan and Gray I just roll my eyes. I have given up bothering to understand them.


Michael Baron would have to be one of the worst judge of minority rights I have ever met. In real life, Michael is a great guy, but for goodness sake he is a complete hypocrite and he needs a friend like me to tell him to get a clue. Michael there is only one race, its called the human race. Everything else is a prejudiced classification system designed by human beings.

In this decade German companies have been forced to compensate Jewish people who were forced to work as slaves during the holocaust. This is because a minority group was categorised and discriminated against by the Nazi's the political power at the time. Thankfully Germany is attempting to come to terms with its history.


Similarly, past White Australian governments deliberately removed children from Indigenous parents because they believed Indigenous cultures would be wiped out. Official public policy was to remove children off mixed marriage and turn them into "whiteys"

Now Michael, you should be able to understand why its is important for Australia to recognise its past and offer an apology. If you don't, get better informed because otherwise you simply sound like a racist redneck. I for one know that you are not that type of a person. Use your brain and think before your speak.

cheers fg7

Ok where do I start?

1) Minority rights and racism have nothing to do with that thread in chesschat you are referring to. And Yes, I do use my brains and think before I speak. I also do read books, articles and research papers on an issue before i form an opinion of my own.

2) Jono is not insane. I disagree with him on a number of issues but i do respect his right to have an opinion! Furthemore, he is a well-informed person. Every opinion is subjective to some extent but he certainly makes sure that all of his arguments are clear and transparent. I would not compare him with Sweeney. With Jono, I can agree or disagree. With people who who say "WTF" to strengthen their argument ...i do not debate. (even though i nevertheless think it was wrong to ban him and i did point it out in one of my postings in chesschat and as for banning him from NSW tournaments - it was a ridiculous decision)
3) What gives you a right to say i am the worst judge of minority rights? Are you in a position to judge me? I appreciate your friendship and i will keep listening to you for "clues" but at the same time if you do not mind - i would also like to be able to listen to other people too as well as well as read latest reports on "abonomy" (aboriginal economy)
4) There is indeed only one race. This is why all Australian citizens should be equal in their rights and in front of the Australian Law.
5) Your example of Germany is something i am well familiar with (being Jewish). So let me clarify: What Germany did was offer compensation (even though no compensation is adequate for lost lives and torture) to victims of the concentration camps. A number of my relatives in Russia recieved the compensation. However, being Jewish - i do not think i am entitled to compensation myself...simply in the basis my nationality.

Therefore, I would like to make it clear that i never denied that those aborigines who personally suffered from the discriminatory Government policies in the past are entitled to compensation. However, i do not see how someone should be getting money from the government simply because of his nationality!
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Gentlemen, please make all future replies to the race/$/guilt topic on a new thread - only for the sake of neatness.

Thanks in advance
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Last edited by Arrogant-One : 02-13-2008 at 09:24 PM Reason: AO has done as Iconoclast requested! :)
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Greetings,

Originally Posted by AO
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
I am terribly sorry for all the Aboriginal children who suffered the injustice
I never actually said that.
First- I use the word indigenous
Second- I never actually said anything of the sort
Finally, I couldn't even quote the saying directly from your post-what goes on there?

As a side note, this thread title really annoys me.
And I never started this thread.
Furthermore, I don't want to condescendingly apologise for cultural genocide of indigenous people within a thread that is ethnocentricaly disrespectful to indigenous people. I am not going to perpetuate that cycle of abuse.

cheers fg7
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:32 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
As a side note, this thread title really annoys me.
And I never started this thread.

cheers fg7
Okay, as it seems this thread really deals with the flow on issues from the 'fear politic cultural' thread, maybe I should merge the two together keeping the title of the fear politic thread? But only if Firegoat is in favour. Please let me know,

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Old 02-14-2008, 04:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Hi,


I still dont understand why your post attributes me saying something that I never said? I also don't understand why i can't quote that saying?

cheers Fg7
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Hi,


I still dont understand why your post attributes me saying something that I never said? I also don't understand why i can't quote that saying?

cheers Fg7
Ohhhhhhhh!

I finally understand what you mean Firegoat7. Sorry, forgot to eat my Weetabix today. I thought I had quoted you using the quote button with that quote, but I guess I must have accidentally quoted someone else and ascribed it to you. My mistake and completely unintentional. Sorry.

Best

AO

ps- How about I merge the thread with this title Firegoat7 "Indigineous Australian Related Topics"? Also, is it okay with you if I fix up that mis-quote? I don't want to do it without your permission or it would look like a cover up instead of an honest mistake.
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MOZ View Post
LMAO!!!
cheers and good luck!
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
In my day-to-day work I occasionally have contact with Aboriginal people in places like the Northern Territory, outback QLD, and so on.

One recent case that stuck in my mind was a girl who was sexually abused over many years in a remote community. She was one of about 6 or 7 girls, all of whom were degraded in the most vile ways ... all of them, except her, have subsequently committed suicide.

Her abusers were mostly other aboriginal folk. Why her parents and other community leaders were unable to protect her I don't know. But I am wondering whether leaders of some of these Aboriginal communities are also going to say "Sorry" to those of their own people whom they so terribly abused.

This whole "stolen generations" issue is exceedingly complex, that I do know. Just saying "Sorry" is not enough. Restitution must be made for genuine wrongs committed. Without that, its hollow ... and I fear that the apology might end up doing more harm than good if its not followed up properly. Rudd and Nelson are kidding themselves if they think they can avoid the compensation issue.

A few observations about this post.

Firstly, the last Indigenous Affairs Minister who tried to solve, or at least begin to address, the tremendous dysfunction in Aboriginal communities by providing a surge in policing resources was turfed out of office at the last election for his efforts.

Secondly, what does that say about the high priority most Australian's place on the issue?

Lastly, is the apology by PM Rudd likely to lead to new intervention initiatives in Aboriginal communities in the future, or make the government less likely to intervene based on past history (which Rudd's apology has now confirmed was a complete failure)?

Unfortunately, I fear its the third point which will ultimately result the apology having a detrimental affect on today's Indigenous generation by discouraging new interventions which could perhaps help to solve some of the problems plaguing Australian Indigenous communities.
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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There's no doubt that aboriginal health & living conditions are a national embarressment. The imperial colonisation of Australia by the British was brutal and a disgrace. The British Empire was like a plague of locust throughout the world, extracting what it could and leaving behind ruin. Other European imperialist were far worse, such as the Spanish.

There's no doubt that much needs to be done in aboriginal communities to resurrect social order and cohesion so that living standards can be improved. There's no doubt that this will take many decades to solve. Poverty is a shame.

There's no doubt that a recognition in the national consciousness of these historical injustices was required in some form. There's also no doubt that that requirement has been shamelessly exploited for poilitical purposes and to open the door to compensation claims, which will in turn be exploited for personal gain and lead to misuse of power and corruption - where ever money is involved it leads to corruption.

Whether this week will serve to increase or reduce racial tolerance is a mute point. So far what I see is a polarisation of views which often accompanies grandeous political statements and ambitions. Maybe a more low key approach would have served better, maybe more action less talk. Maybe a recognition that poverty and disadvantage transcend race and culture and the need to relieve poverty is an imperative that requires cultural and racial differences be disregarded. Maybe what we saw was the race card being played in reverse. Bit too much paternalism, patronising and politics to be healthy. A cloudy week in Australian history.
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by blank frank View Post
There's no doubt that aboriginal health & living conditions are a national embarressment. The imperial colonisation of Australia by the British was brutal and a disgrace. The British Empire was like a plague of locust throughout the world, extracting what it could and leaving behind ruin. Other European imperialist were far worse, such as the Spanish.
I knew someone from a former British colony and he told me that after independence in the 1960's and the British leaving, the colonialism that they had resented so much was now gone and to fill the vacuum once it was gone came crime and social disorder ultimately replaced it. So perhaps colonialism isn't as bad as previously thought.
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Brendan Nelson's Speech

We will be at our best today, and every day, if we call to place ourselves in the shoes of others, imbued with the imaginative capacity to see this issue through their eyes with decency and respect.

We cannot from the comfort of the 21st century begin to imagine what they overcame, indigenous and non-indigenous to give us what we have and make us who we are.

We do know that language, disease, ignorance, good intentions, basic human prejudices and a cultural and technological chasm combined to create a harshness exceed only by the land.

In saying we are sorry, and deeply sorry, we remind ourselves that each generation lives in ignorance of the long-term consequences of its actions.
I can't see how this speech is so bad. Maybe its just because of who he is that people reacted harshly to the speech because maybe its seen as disingenuous or something.
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Old 02-16-2008, 02:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chessic-Adventures View Post
I can't see how this speech is so bad. Maybe its just because of who he is that people reacted harshly to the speech because maybe its seen as disingenuous or something.
Nelson's speech is very typical of everything that is wrong with political representation. The simple facts are that party machines appropriate the stories of real people with real lives and twist real lived events into myths which are simply untrue, regularly. This is done to lead people,(that politicians want to influence) into imagining interpretations of events that have been pre-scripted and carefully crafted. In other words, these media managed events are designed to dumb down and control the masses into agreeing or diagreeing with the rhetoric. Its not a simple problem because sometimes these speeches are needed. But it is a problem that is well documented by experts in the field.

Of course Nelson made a key error. He blindly thought that the ball would pass through to the keeper. Hence this report.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...tion=australia

A very silly mistake by Nelson. And its somewhat doubtful that nobody within the liberal party would have picked up on it before release.
Normally such speeches are made in the name of the dead, who cannot refute the evidence. Nevertheless, are we really supposed to believe that his department are that sloppy? Maybe the liberal party wanted this to happen? Who knows? Two images standout, Nelson the personal and Nelson the naive.
We know where we are.....

cheers Fg7
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