Saudi Woman's Severe Sentence - OzChess

**Arrogant-One** · 11-29-2007, 01:33 PM

There seems to be a bit of controversy surrounding a 19 year old Saudi teenager who was gang raped and then sentenced to 200 lashes and 6 months imprisonment.

There is some debate about whether the girl was sentenced for having sex with the men (regardless of the fact it was rape) or whether it was for being in the presence of a man who was not a relative or her husband (also a punishable crime under Sharia law).

The Saudis have claimed that the 19-year-old married Shiite woman was not being punished for being raped rather it was her being alone with an unrelated man before the rape occurred, an offence against Islamic law as practised by Wahhabi courts.

Originally her sentence was only 90 lashes and no imprisonment, but this was increased on appeal. While several western nations have expressed concern over the incident, they are hampered to some extent as a result of their dependence on Saudi oil.

My question is more general than that.

Should nations such as Australia, which aspire to be multicultural, express concern over this case - which in all respects seems to have been handled according to the laws of an Islamic country. Is Australia hypocritical in saying that Muslims can practise their faith and practises here in Australia whilst denouncing the lawful result of that faith and those practises in Saudi Arabia?

I am of the view that the west should perhaps keep quiet about this. Multiculturalism affords other cultures, including Islamic ones, the right to deal with their affairs as they see fit. To my mind that settles the matter. Asserting our human rights standards on Saudi Arabia, or any other nation, and saying thou shall abide by our 'higher' standards seem pretentious and arrogant. Indeed, whose system of laws pre-dates whose?

**Iconoclast** · 11-29-2007, 02:50 PM

Diplomatic approaches ONLY. I like the idea of the greatest good for the greatest number. Destroying economies and/or war is counter productive.

BTW, let's remember this is all about caused by belief in a god.

Barry · 11-29-2007, 03:25 PM

This case has captured the imagination of western media for some reason probably not unrelated to the US and Australia's military operations in the region. It is not a particularly cruel nor unusual case and while it may be considered barbaric by most western societies, there is nothing in this case that is so unusual that it warrants straining diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia.

For what I would class as a severe case: there was a case of a teenage girl in Iran who was raped and during the trial she admitted to stabbing one of her assailants. She was hung for her crime.

**Little Black Cat** · 11-29-2007, 10:40 PM

"Mohammed" is a pretty common name amongst Islamic people. It is natural for parents to call a son by that name. It is just as natural for a bunch of 6-7 yr olds to call a teddy bear by that name.

If the teacher is going to be punished for letting the 6-7 yr olds name the bear Mohammed is to be whipped, then all so called Islamic parents who call their sons by the same name should be forced to suffer for incurring the same insult as well.

Barry, I agree with you, the Western media tends to only focus on human rights in such "barbaric" countries when it is a Westerner who is on the receiving end of justice.

They made such a moral hoo-ha about a pretty young woman (Chapelle Corby) who was convicted of drug trafficing in Indonesia, yet a young man of Vietnamese descent being executed at the same time for being found guilty of the same crime hardly aroused "the public interest" (in other words, "the media interest").

**vagrantnomad** · 12-02-2007, 09:26 AM

there laws are just nonsence , what the hell , i cant belive what im reading, AO ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????

**Iconoclast** · 12-02-2007, 04:21 PM

Their laws are only possible when religion gives permission to mistreat people. Atheists don't buy into such non-sense.

**Arrogant-One** · 12-02-2007, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by vagrantnomad

there laws are just nonsence , what the hell , i cant belive what im reading, AO ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????

I agree with you vagrantnomad, their laws seem very silly to us. But does that mean we should meddle in their affairs? This is how they have been doing things for hundreds of years.

Barry · 12-02-2007, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I agree with you vagrantnomad, their laws seem very silly to us. But does that mean we should meddle in their affairs? This is how they have been doing things for hundreds of years.

That's right and if they didn't have tankers of oil there the West would give a rat's.

**Chessic-Adventures** · 12-04-2007, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Barry

This case has captured the imagination of western media for some reason probably not unrelated to the US and Australia's military operations in the region. It is not a particularly cruel nor unusual case and while it may be considered barbaric by most western societies, there is nothing in this case that is so unusual that it warrants straining diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia.

For what I would class as a severe case: there was a case of a teenage girl in Iran who was raped and during the trial she admitted to stabbing one of her assailants. She was hung for her crime.

The perpetuation of violence against women is why the West, including Australia, should stand up and challenge the status quo. If we don't who the hell will, the victimised women?

**Chessic-Adventures** · 12-04-2007, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Barry

That's right and if they didn't have tankers of oil there the West would give a rat's.

I don't understand this post, are you saying that if the West didn't need Saudi oil they would be moire assertive in helping the raped girl?

Barry · 12-04-2007, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Chessic-Adventures

I don't understand this post, are you saying that if the West didn't need Saudi oil they would be moire assertive in helping the raped girl?

No I mean if there wasn't Saudi oil we would not have even heard about it.

**Chessic-Adventures** · 12-04-2007, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Barry

No I mean if there wasn't Saudi oil we would not have even heard about it.

Possibly, but I say thank God for groups like Amnesty International which bring these human rights abuses into the public eye. As a result of the media attention the king or sultan or whatever, is intervening on behalf of the girl and will help here. That wouldn't have happened otherwise.

**Ricardo** · 12-05-2007, 01:41 AM

I think there's been a little confusion between the case of the girl who was raped and the case involving the naming of the teddy bear.

I thought I heard that the teacher in the teddy bear case was safe. Has the rape victim received a pardon or something like that?

**Iconoclast** · 12-08-2007, 02:10 PM

I feel sympathy for these poor women in the same way one does for a person in a history book. ie it is something totally out of my personal control. Nevertheless, LET'S GET REAL. No one really gives enough of a stuff to jeopardise trade (profits.) It is a fact that "we" do not give enough of a stuff about most evils in far away places to prompt us to do anything. "We" limit our efforts to the the evils that we can tackle in full view of our peers so that we appear to give a stuff about those nearer to us. Morality is only what we display when we think others are watching us. The only noble facet of this charade is when we display morality when it is our "self" who is the only observer.

Back to the Arab women ... My advice: As boxing trainers say,"Kill the head and the body will stop." In this case, I say, "Kill God so that you can be truly moral and do what YOU know is right without doing it to claim/avoid heaven/hell in the eyes of God."

**Chessic-Adventures** · 12-09-2007, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ricardo

I think there's been a little confusion between the case of the girl who was raped and the case involving the naming of the teddy bear.

I thought I heard that the teacher in the teddy bear case was safe. Has the rape victim received a pardon or something like that?

Is it ok to judge western stadards according to Muslim values? The reverse is done all the time.

I think many Muslims are petty. Muslims need to learn to be a bit more accomodating to international standards.

No other culture has a problem with the cross in Red Cross. No other group of people riot when they hear rumors of their religious book being mistreated half a world away. No other group of people, while being guests at another country, riot when the citizens of the host country exercises their right of free speech. No other group of people demand special treatment at the level of Muslims in the west do.

And now there is hell to pay because a teacher let her students name a teddy bear Muhammod? How can this religion justify that, and why would anyone want to join? Have we even heard a sorry for the Sydney riots not so long ago? Are they sorry?

View Poll Results: Should Australia attempt to intervene on behalf of the Saudi teenager?
Yes	3	60.00%
No	2	40.00%
I don't know	0	0%
Voters: 5. You may not vote on this poll

11-29-2007, 01:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
Arrogant-One Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 1,682 ICC Handle: Just2Good FICS Handle: Advantage	Saudi Woman's Severe Sentence There seems to be a bit of controversy surrounding a 19 year old Saudi teenager who was gang raped and then sentenced to 200 lashes and 6 months imprisonment. There is some debate about whether the girl was sentenced for having sex with the men (regardless of the fact it was rape) or whether it was for being in the presence of a man who was not a relative or her husband (also a punishable crime under Sharia law). The Saudis have claimed that the 19-year-old married Shiite woman was not being punished for being raped rather it was her being alone with an unrelated man before the rape occurred, an offence against Islamic law as practised by Wahhabi courts. Originally her sentence was only 90 lashes and no imprisonment, but this was increased on appeal. While several western nations have expressed concern over the incident, they are hampered to some extent as a result of their dependence on Saudi oil. My question is more general than that. Should nations such as Australia, which aspire to be multicultural, express concern over this case - which in all respects seems to have been handled according to the laws of an Islamic country. Is Australia hypocritical in saying that Muslims can practise their faith and practises here in Australia whilst denouncing the lawful result of that faith and those practises in Saudi Arabia? I am of the view that the west should perhaps keep quiet about this. Multiculturalism affords other cultures, including Islamic ones, the right to deal with their affairs as they see fit. To my mind that settles the matter. Asserting our human rights standards on Saudi Arabia, or any other nation, and saying thou shall abide by our 'higher' standards seem pretentious and arrogant. Indeed, whose system of laws pre-dates whose? __________________ . ... for it is always the person not in the predicament who knows what ought to have been done in it, and would unquestionably have done it too . . . ~ Charles Dickens novel ~

11-29-2007, 02:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 1,006	Diplomatic approaches ONLY. I like the idea of the greatest good for the greatest number. Destroying economies and/or war is counter productive. BTW, let's remember this is all about caused by belief in a god. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-29-2007, 10:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
Little Black Cat Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 38	"Mohammed" is a pretty common name amongst Islamic people. It is natural for parents to call a son by that name. It is just as natural for a bunch of 6-7 yr olds to call a teddy bear by that name. If the teacher is going to be punished for letting the 6-7 yr olds name the bear Mohammed is to be whipped, then all so called Islamic parents who call their sons by the same name should be forced to suffer for incurring the same insult as well. Barry, I agree with you, the Western media tends to only focus on human rights in such "barbaric" countries when it is a Westerner who is on the receiving end of justice. They made such a moral hoo-ha about a pretty young woman (Chapelle Corby) who was convicted of drug trafficing in Indonesia, yet a young man of Vietnamese descent being executed at the same time for being found guilty of the same crime hardly aroused "the public interest" (in other words, "the media interest"). __________________ Even a blind chook, pecking at the ground at random, will eventually find food!

12-02-2007, 04:21 PM	#6 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 1,006	Their laws are only possible when religion gives permission to mistreat people. Atheists don't buy into such non-sense. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-29-2007, 03:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
Barry Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Wollongong Posts: 71	This case has captured the imagination of western media for some reason probably not unrelated to the US and Australia's military operations in the region. It is not a particularly cruel nor unusual case and while it may be considered barbaric by most western societies, there is nothing in this case that is so unusual that it warrants straining diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. For what I would class as a severe case: there was a case of a teenage girl in Iran who was raped and during the trial she admitted to stabbing one of her assailants. She was hung for her crime.

12-02-2007, 09:26 AM	#5 (permalink)
vagrantnomad Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: qld at the moment Posts: 270	there laws are just nonsence , what the hell , i cant belive what im reading, AO ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????

12-02-2007, 07:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
Arrogant-One Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 1,682 ICC Handle: Just2Good FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by vagrantnomad there laws are just nonsence , what the hell , i cant belive what im reading, AO ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????? I agree with you vagrantnomad, their laws seem very silly to us. But does that mean we should meddle in their affairs? This is how they have been doing things for hundreds of years. __________________ . ... for it is always the person not in the predicament who knows what ought to have been done in it, and would unquestionably have done it too . . . ~ Charles Dickens novel ~

12-02-2007, 08:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
Barry Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Wollongong Posts: 71	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I agree with you vagrantnomad, their laws seem very silly to us. But does that mean we should meddle in their affairs? This is how they have been doing things for hundreds of years. That's right and if they didn't have tankers of oil there the West would give a rat's.

12-04-2007, 07:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
Chessic-Adventures Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 204	Originally Posted by Barry This case has captured the imagination of western media for some reason probably not unrelated to the US and Australia's military operations in the region. It is not a particularly cruel nor unusual case and while it may be considered barbaric by most western societies, there is nothing in this case that is so unusual that it warrants straining diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. For what I would class as a severe case: there was a case of a teenage girl in Iran who was raped and during the trial she admitted to stabbing one of her assailants. She was hung for her crime. The perpetuation of violence against women is why the West, including Australia, should stand up and challenge the status quo. If we don't who the hell will, the victimised women?

12-04-2007, 07:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
Chessic-Adventures Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 204	Originally Posted by Barry That's right and if they didn't have tankers of oil there the West would give a rat's. I don't understand this post, are you saying that if the West didn't need Saudi oil they would be moire assertive in helping the raped girl?

12-04-2007, 08:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
Barry Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Wollongong Posts: 71	Originally Posted by Chessic-Adventures I don't understand this post, are you saying that if the West didn't need Saudi oil they would be moire assertive in helping the raped girl? No I mean if there wasn't Saudi oil we would not have even heard about it.

12-04-2007, 09:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
Chessic-Adventures Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 204	Originally Posted by Barry No I mean if there wasn't Saudi oil we would not have even heard about it. Possibly, but I say thank God for groups like Amnesty International which bring these human rights abuses into the public eye. As a result of the media attention the king or sultan or whatever, is intervening on behalf of the girl and will help here. That wouldn't have happened otherwise.

12-05-2007, 01:41 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ricardo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 19	I think there's been a little confusion between the case of the girl who was raped and the case involving the naming of the teddy bear. I thought I heard that the teacher in the teddy bear case was safe. Has the rape victim received a pardon or something like that? __________________ http://this-twisted-history.blogspot.com

12-08-2007, 02:10 PM	#14 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 1,006	I feel sympathy for these poor women in the same way one does for a person in a history book. ie it is something totally out of my personal control. Nevertheless, LET'S GET REAL. No one really gives enough of a stuff to jeopardise trade (profits.) It is a fact that "we" do not give enough of a stuff about most evils in far away places to prompt us to do anything. "We" limit our efforts to the the evils that we can tackle in full view of our peers so that we appear to give a stuff about those nearer to us. Morality is only what we display when we think others are watching us. The only noble facet of this charade is when we display morality when it is our "self" who is the only observer. Back to the Arab women ... My advice: As boxing trainers say,"Kill the head and the body will stop." In this case, I say, "Kill God so that you can be truly moral and do what YOU know is right without doing it to claim/avoid heaven/hell in the eyes of God." __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

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12-09-2007, 06:39 PM	#15 (permalink)
Chessic-Adventures Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 204	Originally Posted by Ricardo I think there's been a little confusion between the case of the girl who was raped and the case involving the naming of the teddy bear. I thought I heard that the teacher in the teddy bear case was safe. Has the rape victim received a pardon or something like that? Is it ok to judge western stadards according to Muslim values? The reverse is done all the time. I think many Muslims are petty. Muslims need to learn to be a bit more accomodating to international standards. No other culture has a problem with the cross in Red Cross. No other group of people riot when they hear rumors of their religious book being mistreated half a world away. No other group of people, while being guests at another country, riot when the citizens of the host country exercises their right of free speech. No other group of people demand special treatment at the level of Muslims in the west do. And now there is hell to pay because a teacher let her students name a teddy bear Muhammod? How can this religion justify that, and why would anyone want to join? Have we even heard a sorry for the Sydney riots not so long ago? Are they sorry?