Farming, trapping or hunting. You still gotta kill it. Farming is not pretty, Trapping isn't either. Hunting, well, that is fully human. Maybe we should all deny our civilizing brain, take some get-stupider pills, let the animals out and then go totally caveman.

My position is that we feel badly if/when we hurt an animal. You might call that part of our moral character. However, that does not mean that there is no possible way for us to eat meat without being immoral.

Wrong. So very very wrong.

We do not need proteins at all! Actually we need what proteins are made of. Proteins are constituted from 20 types of amino acids. Plant proteins are low in some of these amino acids. Suffice to say, not all proteins are the same. To obtain sufficient amounts of particular amino acids to maintain health, you need to consume as much as 3 times as much protein from some plants to obtain the equivalent from animal protein.

Do you know which plants will complement each other in order to make up for the other's deficiency in an amino acid? Of course you don't - you have no education in basic biochemistry.

A well educated person with a high degree of persistence might follow a rigorous diet to ensure sufficient amino acids. This is not to mention some B group vitamins and absorption factors. However, 60% of people cannot even stay within a healthy weight range and think they must drink 8 glasses of water a day. So what hope is there for getting most of us to follow a healthy vegetarian diet? Zero. Your iron intake remark demonstrates my point exactly. Do you know what else you have to consume in order for iron from plants to be absorbed? Look it up. Imposing vegetarianism would condemn future generations to poorer health and lower IQs.

Vegetarianism is folly. Don't do it. Don't espouse it. Don't believe the hype.

I view the debate in a different way Icon. I believe that people ought to basically prove they are capable of killing the animal first. Once that is established then I think we ought to clearly define differences between hunting and farming. Leaving commercial hunting out of the picture for the time being.

Farming ought to be separated into two categories. Farming for profit and farming for self. I don't think I really have the right to tell people how they should farm when they farm for themselves for food. You could probably argue that societies like the RSPCA ought to have some regulatory power, but if people have to eat they have to eat.

Farming for profit is a different story. If people farm for profit then they reduce an animals life to the status of a mere commodity. Therefore, some responsibility for ethical standards ought to be assumed because money is an agreed regulated resource that is relative in value.

The main difficulty I have with accepting that this sort of treatment is moral is the disassociation from the animals death by the consumer. A lot of people who eat food like pork,sheep or beef could never actually kill the animal. Therefore they wouldn't actually eat these types of meats if they had to assume some personal responsibility for the death. Market comodification of animals causes more animal death then would otherwise be the case. Furthermore, it reduces individual responsibility for the death of another living creature. I have no problem with people eating meat, but you should own your responsibility for the death.

Hunting is a much different case. I see no real problem with people hunting and killing a wild animal provided they eat the kill. It is a dignified way of allowing the animal to live a life of freedom without a necessary life predetermination for profit. Furthermore, it assumes some responsibility for the life and death cycle since you actively have to hunt and kill the animal. This forces people to be morally accountable for their actions in a non passive market way. Technology is somewhat of an issue here, but its beyond the scope of this discussion to elaborate the concerns.

But surely such people that let themselves be overweight/obese are people that don't care about their health,

Additionally, when I said that iron could be obtained in a vegetarian/vegan diet I did not mean from eating plants, I meant from scientifically modified foods that are made specifically to include high levels of iron, b12 etc.

I view the debate in a different way Icon. I believe that people ought to basically prove they are capable of killing the animal first.

Farming ought to be separated into two categories. Farming for profit and farming for self. I don't think I really have the right to tell people how they should farm when they farm for themselves for food. ...
Farming for profit is a different story. If people farm for profit then they reduce an animals life to the status of a mere commodity.

The main difficulty I have with accepting that this sort of treatment is moral is the disassociation from the animals death by the consumer. A lot of people who eat food like pork,sheep or beef could never actually kill the animal.

I have no problem with people eating meat, but you should own your responsibility for the death.

Hunting is a much different case. I see no real problem ... Technology is somewhat of an issue here ...

That is exactly my point. If you force vegetarianism on people they will suffer even greater health issues than those caused by fatness.
Here I was thinking that vegetarians wanted additive-free organically grown foods and you want to stuff the food full of modifying agents. Why not just eat meat.

But surely for people who do not care for their health, health should be of utter-least importance? These people will happily eat a McDonalds' pounder for dinner, but then when the issue of vegetarianism comes up health is instantly a sacred gift from above that we should keep as best we can at all times!
And in answer to your second question: Because the environmental consequences could be disastrous, and the living conditions in which the farmed animals live are appalling. Surely this outweighs the argument from laziness.

But surely for people who do not care for their health, health should be of utter-least importance?

...vegetarianism comes up health is instantly a sacred gift from above that we should keep as best we can at all times!

... the environmental consequences could be disastrous,

and the living conditions in which the farmed animals live are appalling. Surely this outweighs the argument from laziness.

Crickey! Maybe just gas them, eh? Round them up like Commies, Jews and homos. Perhaps you should rethink your attitude to ordinary human beings.

People want to eat meat because it tastes sooooooooo good. It has nothing to do with gods gifts and/or human rights.

So what. The living Earth does not owe us a living, and we owe nothing to the living Earth. It will live on no matter what we do. It might be a bit povo for a few million years, but it will come back again without us.


Yes, appalling. So, do something about the appalling conditions. Just don't tell me/us that we are immoral for eating meat. If you want to make meat far more costly to spare the beasts a beastly life, that's fine with me. Just do not blaim meat lovers for poor farming practices.

Sure, we don't owe the Earth anything, but if global warming proves true and we aren't even prepared to remove consumption of meat, then I don't know what to say.

Additionally, for us to eat the amount of meat we do, we HAVE to make the animals live in appalling conditions, this was discussed in the dialogue.

Finally, this thread is about the morality of eating meat, not whether or not it tastes good.

1. Global warming *IS* happening
2. I do know what to say: We are going to let it get worse to the point that most people will die in wars for resources, mostly arable land.

Not really. They are in appalling conditions because it is cheaper to run farms that way.

If you want to discuss the (im)morality of promiscuous shagging, you have to discuss the fact that shagging feels good. Well, what about plain old shagging? Is that immoral? Or perhaps only promiscuity is immoral.

My point is that the act of eating meat is not immoral.

If you personally want to try save a planet that is already on an unstoppable path to destruction, be my guest.

And with regards to climate change, I admire your optimism .