True Democracy - OzChess

**Iconoclast** · 11-13-2007, 09:01 PM

Many years ago I generated a denovo meme. It has not caught on, but maybe it has been falling on minds full of sclerotic qualia. Anyhow ...

Democracy is a system which perports to give all people an equivalent say - one vote - because all people have an equivalent value in society. One man one vote. Was it democracy when only landed men were the one with one vote. What about all men, but no women. And slaves, do they vote. What about the undemocratic practice of age limitation?

Children should have a vote and there parent(s) should cast it by proxy on the child's behalf.

Stop laughing and think before you ridicule the idea. Think through the longterm consequences of such a change in voting rights. Not all of them will be your cup of tea, or mine. However, the behaviour of governments would be changed in an overall and longterm positive way.

Think about it.

Think about the evolution of the right to vote - how it has slowly grown to include every adult. Next step ...

Gendo Ikari · 11-14-2007, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Many years ago I generated a denovo meme. It has not caught on, but maybe it has been falling on minds full of sclerotic qualia. Anyhow ...

Democracy is a system which perports to give all people an equivalent say - one vote - because all people have an equivalent value in society. One man one vote. Was it democracy when only landed men were the one with one vote. What about all men, but no women. And slaves, do they vote. What about the undemocratic practice of age limitation?

Children should have a vote and there parent(s) should cast it by proxy on the child's behalf.

Stop laughing and think before you ridicule the idea. Think through the longterm consequences of such a change in voting rights. Not all of them will be your cup of tea, or mine. However, the behaviour of governments would be changed in an overall and longterm positive way.

Think about it.

Think about the evolution of the right to vote - how it has slowly grown to include every adult. Next step ...

Actually Matt, I am inclined to go the opposite way. I would propose a 'criterion voting system' that would require voters to familiarise themselves with basic policy (nothing too complex) such that they are better equipped to vote rationally. In some instances, frivolous votes may be the ones deciding on a government and this is no better than a lucky dip special.

Spiny Norman · 11-14-2007, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Gendo Ikari

Actually Matt, I am inclined to go the opposite way. I would propose a 'criterion voting system' that would require voters to familiarise themselves with basic policy (nothing too complex) such that they are better equipped to vote rationally. In some instances, frivolous votes may be the ones deciding on a government and this is no better than a lucky dip special.

I'm very much in favour of something similar to this ... however I would structure it as "one person, one vote" at the basic level, then allow people to apply for a "licence to vote" which would give them an extra vote. The test would cover both politics and ethics.

**Iconoclast** · 11-14-2007, 07:47 AM

Oh dear. You two are are going in the opposite direction to the way civilized society has been moving for 2000 years. What you are both proposing is not a democracy on election day, but a sytem of paternalism.

We all know the imperfections of democracy, we know how it is manipulated , how it fails to keep up, and how it is the least worse of system of governance. The title of this thread is "True Democracy." I am sicking with it - until/unless you can convince me that democracy as evident today, needs winding back.

I put it to you that you are advocating a NON-representitive democracy - one where the mentally handicapped, slackers, non-english speakers, prisoners and anyone less than degreed from the A/B demographic, should place their faith in the good will of the group who "want more," as evidenced by the fact that they have accumulated more.

Now back to my point. Votes for children would see politics reflect the true importance of the next generation. At present the "voice" the "representation" of children in our democratic system is diluted by the fact that the parents are using one vote to represent two people.

Question: How does continuing to have this diluted voting right (parent/child) benefit society?

Spiny Norman · 11-14-2007, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Oh dear. You two are are going in the opposite direction to the way civilized society has been moving for 2000 years.

That's evolution for you. The fit will survive ...

**Iconoclast** · 11-14-2007, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Spiny Norman

That's evolution for you. The fit will survive ...

So, are you praying for eugenics now.

Spiny Norman · 11-14-2007, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

So, are you praying for eugenics now.

God forgive me!

**Arrogant-One** · 11-14-2007, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Children should have a vote and there parent(s) should cast it by proxy on the child's behalf.

Sorry Matt

I just don't agree with this notion.

For instance, with 2 unfit parents who have 3 or 4 children, despite flunking out of school and never holding down a full time job or ever demonstrating any responsibility, are supposed to get 4 or 5 votes, when others who do demonstrate greater responsibility and productiveness in society (ie. full time job / going to Uni, etc.) are still stuck with only one vote?

If anything one's voting power should correlate to their yearly annual income. Now I would definitely support that. Lets say one vote per $35,000 of earned income?

AO

ps- Frosty's idea sounds the best so far.

Gendo Ikari · 11-14-2007, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Spiny Norman

I'm very much in favour of something similar to this ... however I would structure it as "one person, one vote" at the basic level, then allow people to apply for a "licence to vote" which would give them an extra vote. The test would cover both politics and ethics.

This is an interesting idea but I would have concerns about just how complex such a test might be - we wouldn't want to exclude intelligent people who may have learning diabilities and so forth but I do like your proposal in principle.

As a side note, have you read Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein? The structure of voting rights in that novel is quite interesting (by the way, the film shouldn't even share the same title, it is nothing like the book at all).

**Iconoclast** · 11-15-2007, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

For instance, with 2 unfit parents who have 3 or 4 children, ... others who do demonstrate greater responsibility and productiveness ... are still stuck with only one vote?

Yes.

Having a say, having a vote, is not a privalage, it is a right.

If anything one's voting power should correlate to their yearly annual income. Now I would definitely support that. Lets say one vote per $35,000 of earned income?

Although, I think your fabulous income-dependant voting rights idea should be toughened up a tad. Instead of an very ordinary $35k, I propose $350k. That would definitely produce a more socially resposible democracy ... not!

Spiny Norman · 11-15-2007, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Gendo Ikari

As a side note, have you read Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein? The structure of voting rights in that novel is quite interesting (by the way, the film shouldn't even share the same title, it is nothing like the book at all).

No, I don't think I have read the book, it doesn't ring a bell (unlike the movie, which I have seen numerous times on TV and which I like enormously!).

**Arrogant-One** · 11-15-2007, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Spiny Norman

No, I don't think I have read the book, it doesn't ring a bell (unlike the movie, which I have seen numerous times on TV and which I like enormously!).

I think they made a sequel and maybe even a part 3. I actually kind of liked the sequel. Have you seen it Frosty?

Spiny Norman · 11-16-2007, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I think they made a sequel and maybe even a part 3. I actually kind of liked the sequel. Have you seen it Frosty?

No, haven't seen a sequel ... but I ditched my Foxtel about a year ago and only have free-to-air TV now, so unless its on the telly I probably never will (I hardly ever bother going to the movies, nor am I a DVD/video hirer).

**Iconoclast** · 11-16-2007, 09:00 AM

The whole reason the Starship Troopers are in so much trouble is that children have no vote.

**Arrogant-One** · 11-16-2007, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

The whole reason the Starship Troopers are in so much trouble is that children have no vote.

They do get to vote if they do military service, and survive the insect wars!

11-13-2007, 09:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 1,006	True Democracy Many years ago I generated a denovo meme. It has not caught on, but maybe it has been falling on minds full of sclerotic qualia. Anyhow ... Democracy is a system which perports to give all people an equivalent say - one vote - because all people have an equivalent value in society. One man one vote. Was it democracy when only landed men were the one with one vote. What about all men, but no women. And slaves, do they vote. What about the undemocratic practice of age limitation? Children should have a vote and there parent(s) should cast it by proxy on the child's behalf. Stop laughing and think before you ridicule the idea. Think through the longterm consequences of such a change in voting rights. Not all of them will be your cup of tea, or mine. However, the behaviour of governments would be changed in an overall and longterm positive way. Think about it. Think about the evolution of the right to vote - how it has slowly grown to include every adult. Next step ... __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-14-2007, 01:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
Gendo Ikari Director Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 100	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Many years ago I generated a denovo meme. It has not caught on, but maybe it has been falling on minds full of sclerotic qualia. Anyhow ... Democracy is a system which perports to give all people an equivalent say - one vote - because all people have an equivalent value in society. One man one vote. Was it democracy when only landed men were the one with one vote. What about all men, but no women. And slaves, do they vote. What about the undemocratic practice of age limitation? Children should have a vote and there parent(s) should cast it by proxy on the child's behalf. Stop laughing and think before you ridicule the idea. Think through the longterm consequences of such a change in voting rights. Not all of them will be your cup of tea, or mine. However, the behaviour of governments would be changed in an overall and longterm positive way. Think about it. Think about the evolution of the right to vote - how it has slowly grown to include every adult. Next step ... Actually Matt, I am inclined to go the opposite way. I would propose a 'criterion voting system' that would require voters to familiarise themselves with basic policy (nothing too complex) such that they are better equipped to vote rationally. In some instances, frivolous votes may be the ones deciding on a government and this is no better than a lucky dip special.

11-14-2007, 06:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
Spiny Norman Suspended Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 223	Originally Posted by Gendo Ikari Actually Matt, I am inclined to go the opposite way. I would propose a 'criterion voting system' that would require voters to familiarise themselves with basic policy (nothing too complex) such that they are better equipped to vote rationally. In some instances, frivolous votes may be the ones deciding on a government and this is no better than a lucky dip special. I'm very much in favour of something similar to this ... however I would structure it as "one person, one vote" at the basic level, then allow people to apply for a "licence to vote" which would give them an extra vote. The test would cover both politics and ethics.

11-14-2007, 07:47 AM	#4 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 1,006	Oh dear. You two are are going in the opposite direction to the way civilized society has been moving for 2000 years. What you are both proposing is not a democracy on election day, but a sytem of paternalism. We all know the imperfections of democracy, we know how it is manipulated , how it fails to keep up, and how it is the least worse of system of governance. The title of this thread is "True Democracy." I am sicking with it - until/unless you can convince me that democracy as evident today, needs winding back. I put it to you that you are advocating a NON-representitive democracy - one where the mentally handicapped, slackers, non-english speakers, prisoners and anyone less than degreed from the A/B demographic, should place their faith in the good will of the group who "want more," as evidenced by the fact that they have accumulated more. Now back to my point. Votes for children would see politics reflect the true importance of the next generation. At present the "voice" the "representation" of children in our democratic system is diluted by the fact that the parents are using one vote to represent two people. Question: How does continuing to have this diluted voting right (parent/child) benefit society? __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-14-2007, 08:45 AM	#5 (permalink)
Spiny Norman Suspended Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 223	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Oh dear. You two are are going in the opposite direction to the way civilized society has been moving for 2000 years. That's evolution for you. The fit will survive ...

11-14-2007, 10:44 AM	#6 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 1,006	Originally Posted by Spiny Norman That's evolution for you. The fit will survive ... So, are you praying for eugenics now. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-14-2007, 12:41 PM	#7 (permalink)
Spiny Norman Suspended Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 223	Originally Posted by Iconoclast So, are you praying for eugenics now. God forgive me!

11-14-2007, 07:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
Arrogant-One Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 1,682 ICC Handle: Just2Good FICS Handle: Advantage	One person, One vote - Fairest System Originally Posted by Iconoclast Children should have a vote and there parent(s) should cast it by proxy on the child's behalf. Sorry Matt I just don't agree with this notion. For instance, with 2 unfit parents who have 3 or 4 children, despite flunking out of school and never holding down a full time job or ever demonstrating any responsibility, are supposed to get 4 or 5 votes, when others who do demonstrate greater responsibility and productiveness in society (ie. full time job / going to Uni, etc.) are still stuck with only one vote? If anything one's voting power should correlate to their yearly annual income. Now I would definitely support that. Lets say one vote per $35,000 of earned income? AO ps- Frosty's idea sounds the best so far. __________________ . ... for it is always the person not in the predicament who knows what ought to have been done in it, and would unquestionably have done it too . . . ~ Charles Dickens novel ~

11-14-2007, 09:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
Gendo Ikari Director Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 100	Originally Posted by Spiny Norman I'm very much in favour of something similar to this ... however I would structure it as "one person, one vote" at the basic level, then allow people to apply for a "licence to vote" which would give them an extra vote. The test would cover both politics and ethics. This is an interesting idea but I would have concerns about just how complex such a test might be - we wouldn't want to exclude intelligent people who may have learning diabilities and so forth but I do like your proposal in principle. As a side note, have you read Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein? The structure of voting rights in that novel is quite interesting (by the way, the film shouldn't even share the same title, it is nothing like the book at all).

11-15-2007, 06:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 1,006	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One For instance, with 2 unfit parents who have 3 or 4 children, ... others who do demonstrate greater responsibility and productiveness ... are still stuck with only one vote? Yes. Having a say, having a vote, is not a privalage, it is a right. If anything one's voting power should correlate to their yearly annual income. Now I would definitely support that. Lets say one vote per $35,000 of earned income? Although, I think your fabulous income-dependant voting rights idea should be toughened up a tad. Instead of an very ordinary $35k, I propose $350k. That would definitely produce a more socially resposible democracy ... not! __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-15-2007, 06:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
Spiny Norman Suspended Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 223	Originally Posted by Gendo Ikari As a side note, have you read Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein? The structure of voting rights in that novel is quite interesting (by the way, the film shouldn't even share the same title, it is nothing like the book at all). No, I don't think I have read the book, it doesn't ring a bell (unlike the movie, which I have seen numerous times on TV and which I like enormously!).

11-15-2007, 02:34 PM	#12 (permalink)
Arrogant-One Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 1,682 ICC Handle: Just2Good FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Spiny Norman No, I don't think I have read the book, it doesn't ring a bell (unlike the movie, which I have seen numerous times on TV and which I like enormously!). I think they made a sequel and maybe even a part 3. I actually kind of liked the sequel. Have you seen it Frosty? __________________ . ... for it is always the person not in the predicament who knows what ought to have been done in it, and would unquestionably have done it too . . . ~ Charles Dickens novel ~

11-16-2007, 07:59 AM	#13 (permalink)
Spiny Norman Suspended Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 223	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I think they made a sequel and maybe even a part 3. I actually kind of liked the sequel. Have you seen it Frosty? No, haven't seen a sequel ... but I ditched my Foxtel about a year ago and only have free-to-air TV now, so unless its on the telly I probably never will (I hardly ever bother going to the movies, nor am I a DVD/video hirer).

11-16-2007, 09:00 AM	#14 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 1,006	The whole reason the Starship Troopers are in so much trouble is that children have no vote. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-16-2007, 07:11 PM	#15 (permalink)
Arrogant-One Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 1,682 ICC Handle: Just2Good FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Iconoclast The whole reason the Starship Troopers are in so much trouble is that children have no vote. They do get to vote if they do military service, and survive the insect wars! __________________ . ... for it is always the person not in the predicament who knows what ought to have been done in it, and would unquestionably have done it too . . . ~ Charles Dickens novel ~

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