antichrist

Film festival movie

Diogenes: Ansar 3
TITLE: Diogenes: Ansar 3
YEAR: 1998
DIR/PROD: Hans Fels, Eitan Wetzler
COUNTRY: Netherlands/Israel
LANGUAGE: Arabic and Hebrew with English ST
TIME: 50 min video
SOURCE: vpro television, postbus po box 11, jc hilversum, 1200 netherlands tel: 3135 671 23 81
TEXT: The Intifada that began in December 1987 was brought on by the frustrations of young Palestinians in Arab territories under Israeli control. With virtually nothing to lose and faced with being powerless to control their own future, they took their struggles to the streets, armed only with stones. They encountered armed Israeli soldiers and were subsequently arrested and jailed in detention camps specifically established for this purpose. One of the largest was Ansar 3, located in the Negev desert. DIOGENES ANSAR 3 was filmed after the camp was closed. A team of Dutch and Israeli filmmakers revisit the period, talking with former guards who reveal their confusion over how Israeli Jews had traversed in one generation from being inmates in concentration camps in Poland to a complete role reversal in the Negev desert. Former Palestinian inmates report on detention under horrible conditions, without due process of law. Some of the guards meet with former prisoners. They speak of emotional scars and of a future in which they hope peace is possible. This screening marks the first time we co-present a film with Cinemayaat: the Arab Film Festival. The screenings will be followed by onstage discussion with filmmakers and Israeli and Palestinian journalists. Amira Hass covers the West Bank for the Israeli paper Haaretz and lives in Ramallah. Hamdi Farraj is a journalist currently running a Palestinian TV station.


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antichrist

A comprehensive list detailing Israel's massacres
And from godlike productions so they must be true



FIERCE CRY FOR LIBERATION ...
Israeli Massacres:
Details and Numbers


Although the Image that Israel distributes about herself is that of an oppressed nation, it is with heavy hearts that we present these crimes that stand for themselves for the brutality of the Israeli Army and the heartlessness of its soldiers who seem to have a thirst for blood. It is for the hope that the world may see a clearer picture that we present these painful facts. It is interesting to notice that today's media does not dwell on these crimes as they do on the Holocaust. They are reported in the news for a week or two and then swept into the sea of oblivion. Those who attempt to revive the true history of Israel are charged of being anti-Semitic. So with the hope to keep those memories in mind we present this shameful history of Israel that seems to have found that the role of Goliath is more interesting than that of David.

The following list of massacres is by no means exclusive, but they reflect the nature of the Zionist occupation of Palestine and Lebanon and show that massacres and expulsions were not aberrations that happen in any war, but organized atrocities with only one aim, that is to have a Zionist state which is 'goyim rein'.
The King David Massacre
The Massacre at Baldat al-Shaikh
YEHIDA MASSACRE
KHISAS MASSACRE
QAZAZA MASSACRE
The Semiramis Hotel Massacre
The Massacre at Dair Yasin
NASER ADIN MASSACRE
THE TANTURA MASSACRE
BEIT DARAS MASSACRE
THE DAHMASH MOSQUE MASSACRE
DAWAYMA MASSACRE
HOULA MASSACRE
SHARAFAT MASSACRE
Salha Massacre
The Massacre at Qibya
KAFR QASEM MASSACRE
Khan Yunis Massacre
The Massacre in Gaza City
ASAMMOU' MASSACRE
Aitharoun Massacre
Kawnin Massacre
Hanin Massacre
Bint Jbeil Massacre
Abbasieh Massacre
Adloun Massacre
Saida Massacre
Fakhani Massacre
Beirut Massacre Sabra And Shatila Massacre
Jibsheet Massacre
Sohmor Massacre
Seer Al Garbiah
Maaraka Massacres
Zrariah Massacre
Homeen Al-Tahta Massacre
Jibaa Massacre
Yohmor Massacre
Tiri massacre
Al-Naher Al-Bared Massacre
Ain Al-Hillwee Massacre
OYON QARA MASSACRE
Siddiqine Massacre
AAQSA MOSQUE MASSACRE
THE IBRAHIMI MOSQUE MASSACRE
THE JABALIA MASSACRE
Aramta Massacre
ERETZ CHECKPOINT MASSACRE
Deir Al-Zahrani Massacre
Nabatiyeh (school bus) Massacre
Mnsuriah Massacre
The Sohmor Second Massacre
Nabatyaih Massacre
Qana Massacre
Trqumia Massacr
Janta Massacre
24 Of June 1999 Massacres
Western Bekaa villages Massacre:

The King David Massacre:

The King David Hotel explosion of July 22, 1946 (Palestine), which resulted in the deaths of 92 Britons, Arabs and Jews, and in the wounding of 58, was not just an act of “Jewish extremists,” but a premeditated massacre conducted by the Irgun in agreement with the highest Jewish political authorities in Palestine-- the Jewish Agency and its head David-Ben-Gurion.
According to Yitshaq Ben-Ami, a Palestinian Jew who spent 30 years in exile after the establishment of Israel investigating the crimes of the “ruthless clique heading the internal Zionist movement,”
The Irgun had conceived a plan for the King David attack early in 1946, but the green light was given only on July first. According to Dr. Sneh, the operation was personally approved by Ben-Gurion, from his self-exile in Europe. Sadeh, the operations officer of the Haganah, and Giddy Paglin, the head of the Irgun operation under Menachem Begin agreed that thirty-five minutes advance notice would give the British time enough to evacuate the wing, without enabling them to disarm the explosion.
The Jewish Agency’s motive was to destroy all evidence the British had gathered proving that the terrorist crime waves in Palestine were not merely the actions of “fringe” groups such as the Irgun and Stern Gang, but were committed in collusion with the Haganah and Palmach groups and under the direction of the highest political body of the Zionist establishment itself, namely the Jewish Agency.
That so many innocent civilian lives were lost in the King David massacre is a normal part of the pattern of the history of Zionist outrages: A criminal act is committed, allegedly by an isolated group, but actually under the direct authorization of the highest Zionist authorities, whether of the Jewish Agency
during the Palestine Mandate or of the Government of Israel thereafter.

The following is a statement made in the House of Commons by then British Prime Minister Clement Attlee:
On July 22, 1946, one of the most dastardly and cowardly crimes in recorded history took place. We refer to the blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.
Ninety-two persons lost their lives in that stealthy attack, 45 were injured, among whom there were many high officials, junior officers and office personnel, both men and women. The King David Hotel was used as an office housing the Secretariat of the Palestine Government and British Army Headquarters. The attack was made on 22 July at about 12 o’clock noon when offices are usually in full swing. The attackers, disguised as milkmen, carried the explosives in milk containers, placed them in the basement of the Hotel and ran away.

The Chief Secretary for the Government of Palestine, Sir John Shaw, declared in a broadcast: “As head of the Secretariat, the majority of the dead and wounded were my own staff, many of whom I have known personally for eleven years. They are more than official colleagues. British, Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Armenians; senior officers, police, my orderly, my chauffeur, messengers, guards, men and
women-- young and old-- they were my friends.

“No man could wish to be served by a more industrious, loyal and honest group of ordinary decent people. Their only crime was their devoted, unselfish and impartial service to Palestine and its people. For this they have been rewarded by cold-blooded mass murder.”

Although members of the Irgun Z’vai Leumi took responsibility for this crime, yet they also made it public later that they obtained the consent and approval of the Haganah Command, and it follows, that of the Jewish Agency.

The King David Hotel massacre shocked the conscience of the civilizedworld. On July 23, Anthony Eden, leader of the British opposition Conservative
Party, posed a question in the House of Commons to Prime Minister Atlee of the Labor Party, asking “the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make on the bomb outrage at the British Headquarters in Jerusalem.” The Prime Minister responded:
“…It appears that, after exploding a small bomb in the street, presumably as a diversionary measure-- this did virtually no damage-- a lorry drove up to the tradesmen’s entrance of the King David Hotel and the occupants, after holding up the staff at pistol point, entered the kitchen premises carrying a number of milk cans. At some stage of the proceedings, they shot and seriously wounded a British soldier who attempted to interfere with them. All available information so far is to the effect that they were Jews. Somewhere in the basement of the hotel they planted bombs which went off shortly afterwards. They appear to have made good their escape.
“Every effort is being made to identify and arrest the perpetrators of this outrage. The work of rescue in the debris, which was immediately organized, still continues. The next-of-kin of casualties are being notified by telegram as soon as accurate information is available. The House will wish to express their
profound sympathy with the relatives of the killed and with those injured in this dastardly outrage.”
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The Massacre at Baldat al-Shaikh:

January 30-31, 1947(Palestine) : This massacre took place following an argument which broke out between Palestinian workers and Zionists in the Haifa Petroleum Refinery, leading to the deaths of a number of Palestinians and wounding and killing approximately sixty Zionists. A large number of the Palestinian Arab workers were living in Baldat al-Shaikh and Hawasa, located in the southeast of Haifa. Consequently, the Zionists planned to take revenge on behalf of fellow Zionists who had been killed in the refinery by attacking Baldat al-Shaikh and Hawasa.1
On the night of January 30-31, 1947, a mixed force composed of the First Battalion
of Palmakh and the Carmelie brigade (estimated at approximately 150 to 200
Zionist terrorists) launched a raid against the two towns under the leadership of
Hayim Afinu'am.]2 They focused their attack on the outskirts of Baldat al-Shaikh and
Hawasa. Taking the outlying homes by surprise as their inhabitants slept, they pelted
them with hand grenades, then went inside, firing their machine guns.3 The terrorist
attack led to the deaths of approximately sixty citizens inside their homes, most of
them women, elderly and children.4 The attack lasted for an hour, after which the
Zionists withdrew at 2:00 a.m., having attacked a large number of noncombatant
homes.5 According to a report written by the leader of the terrorist operation, "the
attacking units slipped into the town and began working on the houses. And due to
the fact that gunfire was directed inside the rooms, it was not possible to avoid
injuring women and children."6
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YEHIDA MASSACRE:
13 December 1947(Palestine) : men of the Arab village of Yehiday (near Petah Tekva, the first Zionist settlement to be established) met at the local coffee house when they saw a British Army patrol enter the village, they were reassured espeically that Jewish terrorists had murdered 12 Palestinians the previous day. The four cars stopped in front of the cafe house and out stepped men dressed in khaki uniforms and steel helmets. However, it soon became apparent that they had not come to protect the villagers. With machine guns they sprayed bullets into the crowd gathered in the coffee house. Some of the invaders placed bombs next to Arab homes while other disguised terrorists tossed grenades at civilians. For a while it seemed as if the villagers would be annihilated but soon a real British patrol arrived to foil the well organized killing raid. The death toll of 7 Arab civilans could have been much higher. Earlier the same day 6 Arabs were killed and 23 wounded when home made bombs were tossed at a crowd of Arabs standing near the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem. In Jaffa another bomb killed six more Arabs and injured 40.

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KHISAS MASSACRE:
18 December 1947(Palestine) : Two carloads of Haganah terrorists drove through the village of Khisas (on the Lebanese Syrian border) firing machine guns and throwing grenades. 10 Arab civilians were killed in the raid.

plus many more

Axiom

'Ten big media lies' about Israel
Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:51:03 GMT

Michel Collon, a Belgian journalist and author, in his book "Israel, let's talk about it," has slammed European media over decades of "lying" to people in order to support Israel.

Collon, in his book, has recounted "10 big lies" spread by Western media in order to "justify the existence and actions of Israel", which are concisely presented below:

1. The first lie is that Israel was established in reaction to the massacre of Jews during the World War II.
This notion is completely wrong. Israel is in fact a domineering project which was approved in the First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland, in 1897, when nationalist Jews decided to occupy Palestine.

2. The second justification for establishing and legitimizing Israel is that the Jews are returning to their forefathers' land, from where they had been driven away in 70 A.D. This is a tale. I have spoken to the famous Israeli historian Shlomo Sand and other historians and they all believe that there has been no "exodus," so "return" is meaningless. The people living in Palestine have not left their land in the ancient era.

In fact the descendents of Jews residing in Palestine are the people who are currently living in Palestine. Those who claim they want to return to their lands originate for Western and Eastern Europe and Northern Africa.

Sand says there is no Jewish nation. The Jews do not have common history, language or culture. The only common thing between them is their religion, and religion does not make a nation.

3. The third lie is that when Jewish immigrants occupied Palestine, it was an empty and uninhibited country.

However, there are documents and evidences that prove that in the 19th century the agricultural products of Palestine were exported to different countries, including France.

4. Fourth, some people say Palestinians left their country on their own free will.

This is another lie, which lots of people believed, including myself. Until Israeli historians like Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe said that Palestinians were driven away and banished from their lands by using force and terror.

5. It is said that today Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and it should be protected; it is the "government of law."

But in my opinion not only it is not the government of law; it is the only regime that no law defines its territory and boundaries. All the countries of the world have a constitution which defines their boundaries, but no such thing applies to Israel. Israel is an expansionist project which knows no boundary, and its law is completely racist; according to this law Israel is the country for Jews, and its non-Jew citizens are not considered human. Such law is a contradiction to democracy.

6. It is said that the US tries to protect democracy in the Middle East by protecting Israel. And we know that the US annual financial aid to Israel amounts to 3 billion dollars. This money is used for bombarding Israel's neighbor countries.

But America is not after establishing democracy in the Middle East; it wants the undisturbed flow of oil.

7. They pretend that the US seeks an agreement between Israel and Palestine.

This is also completely wrong and a lie. EU former Foreign Policy Chief Javier Solana told the Israel that "you are the 21st country of the European Union." The European weapons industries cooperate with the Israeli military industries and support them financially. But when Palestinians elected their government, Europe did not recognize it and gave the green light to Israel to attack the Gaza Strip.

8. When one talks about these facts and the history of Israel and Palestine, when one reveals the US interests in this situation, they call you anti-Semite to keep you silent.

But we should say that when we criticize Israel, it is not racism or anti-Semitism. We criticize a government that does not believe in the equality of Jews, Christians and Muslims, and so destroys the peace between followers of different religions.

9. The mass media say that Palestinians cause violence and terrorism. We say Israel army's occupation is violence, the policy that has stolen land and home from Palestinians is violence.

10. An issue which is often raised is that there is no way for resolving this situation, and there is no solution for the hatred and the grudge caused by Israel and its accomplices.

But there is a solution. The only thing that can stop this process is the public pressure on the accomplices of Israel in the US and Europe and other parts of the world; public pressure on the mass media which refrain from telling the truth about Israel; and using the Internet or any other media out let to publish real news about Palestine

'Ten big media lies' about Israel

British Jews favour 'two-state solution' in Israel | World news | guardian.co.uk

__________________
"Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom

Axiom

__________________
"Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom

antichrist

from wikipedia

The Palestinian people, (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني‎, ash-sha`b al-filasTīni) also referred to as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: الفلسطينيون‎, al-filasTīnīyyūn; Arabic: العرب الفلسطينيون‎, al-`Arab al-filasTīnīyyūn), are an Arabic-speaking Mediterranean people with family origins in Palestine. Genetic analysis shows they are of mainly Levantine ancestry, similar to Jews, Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians.[13]

In the areas of Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, as of 2004, Palestinian Arabs constitute 49% of all inhabitants,[14] some of whom are internally displaced. The remainder, comprise what is known as the Palestinian diaspora, of whom more than half are stateless refugees, lacking citizenship in any country.[15] ...........

By religious affiliation, most Palestinians are Muslim, particularly of the Sunni branch of Islam, and there is a significant Palestinian Christian minority of various Christian denominations in the Palestinian territories. However, the majority of Palestinian Christians are found outside of Palestine. As the commonly applied "Palestinian Arab" ethnonym implies, the current traditional vernacular of Palestinians, irrespective of religion, is the Palestinian dialect of Arabic. For those who are Arab citizens of Israel, many are now also bilingual in Modern Hebrew.

Recent genetic evidence has demonstrated that Palestinians as an ethnic group are closely related to Jews and represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times,"[17][18] largely predating the Arabian Muslim conquest that resulted in their acculturation, established Arabic as the predominant vernacular, and over time also Islamized many of them from various prior faiths........................--------------------------------------------------

AC
So again it can be seen that Palestinian ancestors have always been there, not just in what Jono terms Arabia. They may or may not have been called Palestinian but that has no significance. Just as Jews have not always been called Jews.
So Jono, Igor and Mike, we are blood and culturally related. That is if you have not been "contaminated" in Europe.


from Wiki..

Struggle for self-determination

Palestinians have never exercised full sovereignty over the land in which they have lived. Palestine was administered by the Ottoman Empire until World War I, and then by the British Mandatory authorities. Israel was established in parts of Palestine in 1948, and in the wake of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were occupied by Jordan, and the Gaza Strip by Egypt, with both countries continuing to administer these areas until Israel occupied them during the 1967 war. Avi Shlaim explains that the argument that "you never had sovereignty over this land, and therefore you have no rights," has been used by Israelis to deny Palestinian rights and attachment to the land.[53]

Only "peoples" are entitled to self-determination in contemporary international law.[54] The International Court of Justice said that Israel had recognized the existence of a "Palestinian people" and referred a number of times to the Palestinian people and its "legitimate rights" in international agreements. The Court said those rights include the right to self-determination.[55] Judge Koroma explained "The Court has also held that the right of self-determination as an established and recognized right under international law applies to the territory and to the Palestinian people. Accordingly, the exercise of such right entitles the Palestinian people to a State of their own as originally envisaged in resolution 181 (II) and subsequently confirmed." Judge Higgins also said "that the Palestinian people are entitled to their territory, to exercise self-determination, and to have their own State."[56]

Paul De Waart said that the Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice in 2004 "ascertained the present responsibility of the United Nations to protect Palestine’s statehood. It affirmed the applicability of the prohibition of acquisition of Palestinian territory by Israel and confirmed the illegality of the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

Moreover, the existence of the Palestinian people as the rightful claimant to the Occupied Palestinian Territory is no longer open to question.[57]In October 2007 the Japanese Justice Ministry decided to accept the Palestinian nationality. The decision followed a recommendation by a ruling party panel on nationality that Palestinians should no longer be treated as stateless.[58]

Today, the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination is generally recognized, having been affirmed by the Security Council, the General Assembly, the International Court of Justice and by Israel itself.[59] About 100 nations recognize Palestine as a state,[60] with Costa Rica being the most recent country to do so, in February 2008.[61] However, Palestinian sovereignty over the areas claimed as part of the Palestinian state remains limited, and the boundaries of the state remain a point of contestation between Palestinians and Israelis
.................................................. ..............

AC
So under international law Israel is completely illegally occupying the West Bank where it has built tens of thousands of homes, put up road blocks, checkpoints, destroyed vineyards etc.

There have been hundred of UN resolutions condemning Israeli actions but all action vetod by the United States - that is why the hatred of the United States by the Arabic countries. That is why the terrorist bombings.

And as well Australia also votes with Israel on many Israeli/Palestinian issues in the UN, so it is extremely relevant that we have this debate in Austalia, because we are part of contravention of international law.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------antichrist
more from Wiki.. Much of the local Palestinian population in Nablus is believed to be descended from Samaritans who converted to Islam.[90] Even today, certain Nabulsi surnames including Muslimani, Yaish, and Shakshir among others, are associated with a Samaritan origin.[90]

[edit] Politicized Lineages
Salim Tamari notes the paradoxes produced by the search for "nativist" roots among Zionist figures and the so-called Canaanite (anti-Zionist) followers of Yonatan Ratosh.[91] For example, Ber Borochov, one of the key ideological architects of Socialist Zionism, claimed as early as 1905 that, "The Fellahin in Eretz-Israel are the descendants of remnants of the Hebrew agricultural community,"[92] believing them to be descendants of the ancient Hebrew and Canaanite residents 'together with a small admixture of Arab blood'".[91] He further believed that the Palestinian peasantry would embrace Zionism and that the lack of a crystallized national consciousness among Palestinian Arabs would result in their likely assimilation into the new Hebrew nationalism.[91] Other founding fathers of Zionism believed that the Palestinian people were descended from the biblical ancient Hebrews. David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later becoming Israel's first Prime Minister and second President, respectively, tried to establish in a 1918 paper written in Yiddish that Palestinian peasants and their mode of life were living historical testimonies to Israelite practices in the biblical period.[91][93] Tamari notes that "the ideological implications of this claim became very problematic and were soon withdrawn from circulation."[91]



Ahad Ha'am believed that, "the Moslems [of Palestine] are the ancient residents of the land ... who became Christians on the rise of Christianity and became Moslems on the arrival of Islam."[91] Israel Belkind, the founder of the Bilu movement also asserted that the Palestinian Arabs were the blood brothers of the Jews.[94] In his book on the Palestinians, "The Arabs in Eretz-Israel", Belkind advanced the idea that the complete dispersion of Jews out of the Land of Israel after the destruction of the Second Temple by the Roman emperor Titus is a "historic error" that must be corrected. While it dispersed much of the land's Jewish community around the world, those "workers of the land that remained attached to their land," stayed behind and were eventually converted to Christianity and then Islam.[94] He therefore, proposed that this historical wrong be corrected, by embracing the Palestinians as their own and proposed the opening of Hebrew schools for Palestinian Arab Muslims to teach them Arabic, Hebrew and universal culture.[94] More recently, Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli researcher, entrepreneur and proponent of a controversial alternative solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, asserts that nearly 90% of all Palestinians living within Israel and the occupied territories (including the Israeli Arabs and Negev Bedouin)[95] are descended from the Jewish Israelite peasantry that remained on the land, after the others, mostly city dwellers, were exiled or left.[96]


More recently, Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli researcher, entrepreneur and proponent of a controversial alternative solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, asserts that nearly 90% of all Palestinians living within Israel and the occupied territories (including the Israeli Arabs and Negev Bedouin)[95] are descended from the Jewish Israelite peasantry that remained on the land, after the others, mostly city dwellers, were exiled or left.[96]

AC
So it appears Mike that the Palestinians have every right to be right throughout Israel as they have always been there and are in fact genuine Jews. They should not have been expelled from Israel at all and have every moral right as well as legal right (that is recognised by UN) to return.

Igor Goldenberg

Ax,

Before addressing those claims, let me ask you a question:
Do you believe anything in this article to be true?

__________________
For private coaching email IgorGoldenberg@bluebottle.com
Computer tells you what to play, a good coach explains why.

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
H. L. Mencken

Axiom

I merely claim the article as a source to aid rarely publicly aired debate on this subject .

And for the sake of being informed , i not only believe anything in this article to be (closer to) truth but everything in it to be (closer to) truth.

__________________
"Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom

Iconoclast

Axiom. You have picked a winner here. The "Israeli Lobby" is as close as we get to a conspiracy. I commend your efforts here. However, be careful not to get sucked into thinking that Israel is the only baddy - it is merely the baddest bad baddy.

I would add that I am not sure which team to barack for. USA or Israel. It is like watching coppers and bikies in a brawl - I want both to lose, each for different reasons.

__________________
The individual is hopeless without the group.
The group is hopeless without its individuals.

antichrist

The Jewish lobby took Mike Carlton to court for alleging that there was a Jewish lobby - he proved to the Press Council that there was a Jewish Lobby so was only stating fact.

antichrist

In my posts above that the Jewish Lobby has not responded to, it comes out that the Palestinians are "Jewish" also, hope the bad name does not rub off onto the Palestinians.

Igor Goldenberg

In fact, Collon is blatantly lying himself. To be precise he recycles the lies that were always permeated by Arab and European press, and then decides to pose it as "revelation" - which, by itself, is an intellectual dishonesty.

"Palestine" at the time was a small part of Turkish province. Nobody even used the word "Palestine" apart from Jews. The word "Palestinian" at that time meant Jew. Seventy years later Arafat creatively hijacked the word.
Palestine has a significant Jewish population, in fact about 40,000 Jews constituted a majority of 70,000 Jerusalem population.
Western powers, especially Britain that controlled Palestine after WWI, hindered the formation of Israel (despite Britain promises to establish Jewish state). Only after WWI Britain was forced to pass mandate to UN, and it was exactly the reaction to the Holocaust.

I've never heard of Sand, doubt he is "famous". Unlike Arab states, Israel has a freedom of speech, so dissenting opinions are not prosecuted.
According to traditional history Jews did live in Israel and were forced from their by Romans. Jerusalem is mentioned in Bible hundreds of times (unlike Quran that does not mention Jerusalem at all). Common religion (Judaism) and common language (Hebrew) defines Jews as a nation.
The most interesting thing is that overwhelming majorities of Arabs living in Israel are also descendants of relatively recent (XX century) migrants.


Jewish immigrants did not "occupy" Palestine. They were legally and lawfully buying land from Turks and Arabs. This land was usually arid and empty.

As for the claim about documents and evidences, I'd like to see them. Until them I will treat as wild fantasy.

Again, Collon relies on hearsay and fairytales perpetuated by Arabs. Most of them fled on their own accord after being told by Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia to make way for invading Arab armies.

It also begs a question - why some Arabs "were driven away and banished from their lands by using force and terror" and some stayed? (currently there are 1.5 millions Arabs who are Israeli citizens, who, btw, enjoy unprecedented freedom and prosperity in comparison to Arabs in neighbouring Arab countries.)


Collon seems to have a very perverted view of democracy.
Israel is far from perfect, is has a very high level of socialism, welfare and numerous government programs. It also has a very high proprotion of "useful idiots" who are afraid of offending Arabs and afraid of "world opinion".
It indeed does not have a constitution that defines border, and it's a failure of internal process and reflection of the mentality mentioned above. However, interpreting it as Israel being an expansionist project is plain stupid and not supported by any facts. Suppose it was true. After six-day war Israel controlled territory that is many times more then now. It was not forced to give Sinai to Egypt on the battlefield. It didn't have to give Gaza, Judea and Samaria to Arafat. If it's expansionist, what is contraction?

The claim that " its non-Jew citizens are not considered human" shows that the author needs psychiatric help. Please excuse me for not even addressing it.


It begs two question:
1. Which neighbour countries Israel bombards? Egypt? Jordan? Saudi Arabia? Syria?
Only Lebanon holds the honour, but it's not surprising given Hizbollah attack.
2. How on Earth supporting Israel, which has no oil reserve on it's own and is considered as an enemy by all oil producing countries helps " undisturbed flow of oil"?

US constantly twisted Israel's arm forcing it to compromise with Arafat and FATAH. If it wasn't for US (and for local Israel idiots), Israel wouldn't be forced to Oslo accord (which costs thousands of lives on both sides).
If it wasn't for US, Israel wouldn't be forced to numerous concession that legitimise the father of modern terrorism Arafat.
Camp-David accord in 2000 (that lead to new bloodshed) was orcestrated by Clinton.

Everyone remembers the outcry and smearing of Israel when it bombed Hamas two years ago, especially in European press. And Collon has an audacity to talk about green light? What a hypocrite!

Again, it can't be further from the truth. Portraying an Israel as evil is the favourite past-time of US and, to even higher degree, European press.
Attacks that deny the right of Israel to exist are, by definition, anti-Semitic. Just vicious indiscriminate attacks on Israel (which are abound) simply appalling, but nobody calls them anti-Semitic.

The mass media usually blames Israel as much, even more, despite those blames being unjust and unjustified. Contrary to Collon's blinkered view, Palestinians crimes are usually whitewashed and always accompanied by the talk about "root cause" and justified "by resistance".
I addressed "occupation" and "stolen land" as a recycled lie.

There is indeed a solution. The moment Palestinian stop violence, terrorist attacks and suicide bombers, violence will stop. However, enlightened Europe and US are very reluctant to do so. It so much easier to blame Israel!

__________________
For private coaching email IgorGoldenberg@bluebottle.com
Computer tells you what to play, a good coach explains why.

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
H. L. Mencken

Iconoclast

The hypocrisy of this statement utterly destroys the credibility of your previous arguments. If you want to sway opinion, never be hypocritical.

The number of civilian deaths in the Arab-Jew conflict since 1948 has been ~ 20:1. So don't lecture us on who are the murderous swine of the middle-east conflict.

Try this ratio to start with.

Then google
"Palestinian casualties" and "Israeli casualties"

Then eat your words.

__________________
The individual is hopeless without the group.
The group is hopeless without its individuals.

Just2Good

No one named Mike is involved in this thread, and as Jono and Igor primarily post at Chess Chat, why don't you spare us and take your family tree theories to Chess Chat?

__________________
.
"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing."

~ Isaiah Berlin ~

Igor Goldenberg

You might want to familiarise yourself with facts before making vicious and personal attacks.

Higher casualty ratio is due to:
- Israeli being much more effective and better soldiers.
- Israel protecting it's own civilian populations, while Fatah and Hamas using it's own civilians as a human shield.
- Israeli soldiers protect children and women, while Hamas, Hizbullah and Fatah hiding behind their children and women.

Look at who initiates the violence and who responds to violence.
Look at who is targeted by terrorists and who is targeted by Israel.
Terrorists predominately attack civilians. Israel targets terrorists. Civilians (some of them even innocent) are sometimes caught in crossfire. Sometimes IDF makes an error resulting in civilian death. But violence is always initiated by Fatah, Hamas, Hixbullah, etc, who predominantly target civilians.

Given that you accused me of hypocrisy, I expect you to practice what you preach.

__________________
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The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
H. L. Mencken

antichrist

You are only upset coz I hit the nail on the head with that post about you only watching footie and leaving the bride stripped bare and freezing to death alone.