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Old 09-17-2007, 09:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Euthanasia and Abortion

Thought I would spice things up around here.

Do you think people should have the right to kill themselves, do we have the right to life? (YES) Must we excescise this right to live?

What about the psychological damage inflicted on loved ones, are we free to hurt those that love us?

Should family be allowed you euthanize you if you become comatose for an unpredictable duration?

Luckily i have never been in this situation (hmmm that doesnt sound right) but yeah whats your thoughts?
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Arrogant-One View Post
I'm not sure these types of topics should be discussed on a chess forum. I will talk to the co-owner about possibly establishing boundaries on such topics, but I suppose until then its fair game.
chessplayers like to discuss all sorts of things
perhaps it could go in a philosophy thread?
a general politics free for all thread could be useful too.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I disagree with abortion, and actually for me that's one of the saddest things about my life in China. I hear all sorts of stories about abortions etc., and there are ads for it on TV

To me there is no difference between abortion and murder. Many people argue about the right of the mother to choose, but I hardly hear anyone mention the baby's rights!

It's a sad, sad world that we live in today.
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hugodiaz View Post
I disagree with abortion, and actually for me that's one of the saddest things about my life in China. I hear all sorts of stories about abortions etc., and there are ads for it on TV

To me there is no difference between abortion and murder. Many people argue about the right of the mother to choose, but I hardly hear anyone mention the baby's rights!

It's a sad, sad world that we live in today.


I disagree strongly with most views expressed so far on this thread.
It is a beautiful world we live in today.
Sure there are lots of dilemmas facing us but compare life now with how it was 200 years ago and the further you go back the worse it gets.

On euthanasia;
In my view everyone has the right to leave this earthly party at a time of their own choosing should they wish. If people are gravely sick and/or unhappy then the world is not so beautiful (to them) relatives should not stand in their way if they feel they have to leave.
The role of the State in this should be to provide a mandatory period of counseling but ultimately to make available the means necessary for people to do so with dignity.

On abortion:
In my view, until the actual birth of the child the Mother and the Child are one organism and it is the mother’s rights that are paramount.
Women choose abortion because they have nothing to offer the child that they are carrying. To force the child into the world against the will of the Mother is wrong.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:15 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by phild707 View Post

On euthanasia;
In my view everyone has the right to leave this earthly party at a time of their own choosing should they wish. If people are gravely sick and/or unhappy then the world is not so beautiful (to them) relatives should not stand in their way if they feel they have to leave.
The role of the State in this should be to provide a mandatory period of counseling but ultimately to make available the means necessary for people to do so with dignity.

On abortion:
In my view, until the actual birth of the child the Mother and the Child are one organism and it is the mother’s rights that are paramount.
Women choose abortion because they have nothing to offer the child that they are carrying. To force the child into the world against the will of the Mother is wrong.
Very well put. I agree 100%.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by phild707 View Post

In my view everyone has the right to leave this earthly party at a time of their own choosing should they wish.

In my view, until the actual birth of the child the Mother and the Child are one organism and it is the mother’s rights that are paramount.
On what do you base these two views?
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Good question??

Originally Posted by Egor View Post
On what do you base these two views?

All my views are based on my personal knowledge and experience.
What are your views based on?
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by phild707 View Post
On euthanasia;
In my view everyone has the right to leave this earthly party at a time of their own choosing should they wish. If people are gravely sick and/or unhappy then the world is not so beautiful (to them) relatives should not stand in their way if they feel they have to leave.
The role of the State in this should be to provide a mandatory period of counseling but ultimately to make available the means necessary for people to do so with dignity.


I agree in general, that voluntary euthanasia should be acceptable after individuals have undergone counselling and consultation with physicians. I thought the Northern Territory's Rights of the Terminally Ill Act of 1995 was a great piece of legislation - Kevin Andrews' reasons for rescinding it through federal parliament were woefully inadequate. You can read Bob Dent's (one of four to make use of the legislation before it was rescinded) letter to parliament here: http://www.exitinternational.net/bob_dent.htm

The arguments regarding the social consequences of allowing the practice don't stand up either if the correct criteria is adhererd to, i.e. having a terminal illness, enduring a lot of suffering as set out in the original legislation.

Of course, the more interesting questions involve non-voluntary euthanasia in cases of braindead coma patients and severely disabled infants.
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Old 09-21-2007, 04:01 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gendo Ikari View Post
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I agree in general, that voluntary euthanasia should be acceptable after individuals have undergone counselling and consultation with physicians. I thought the Northern Territory's Rights of the Terminally Ill Act of 1995 was a great piece of legislation - Kevin Andrews' reasons for rescinding it through federal parliament were woefully inadequate. You can read Bob Dent's (one of four to make use of the legislation before it was rescinded) letter to parliament here: http://www.exitinternational.net/bob_dent.htm

The arguments regarding the social consequences of allowing the practice don't stand up either if the correct criteria is adhererd to, i.e. having a terminal illness, enduring a lot of suffering as set out in the original legislation.

Of course, the more interesting questions involve non-voluntary euthanasia in cases of braindead coma patients and severely disabled infants.
I think that these non-voluntary cases are a lot tougher and would not be game to make a general statement on them, since the cases can vary a lot, other than to say that the family carers wishes should carry a lot of weight.

Looking outside our own backyard I noticed this morning that a well known French actress has passed away in a hospital in Switzerland due the effects of narcotics administered by Hospital staff there at her and her family's request, (She had a facial tumour).
In Switzerland euthanasia is legal while in France it is not.
She and family travelled together by train to the Swiss hospital while she still had the strength to do so.
Its a worldwide problem and a very divisive issue.
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Old 09-21-2007, 04:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hugodiaz View Post
I disagree with abortion, and actually for me that's one of the saddest things about my life in China. I hear all sorts of stories about abortions etc., and there are ads for it on TV
Ads for abortion on television!!!

That is very troubling indeed Hugo. At least in Australia abortions are done very low key and privately because the mothers and doctors know that what they are doing is wrong and therefore want to conceal the practise as much as they can. The only instance where abortion is justifiable is when, in the honest and genuine opinion of a qualified and experienced medical doctor, there is a substantial liklihood that death during child birth would result to the mother.

Regarding euthanasia, the issue is fundamentally the same in my view. Just as abortion is murder, so to is killing one's self (euthanasia). Murder of another person cannot be justified on the basis that the victim is in pain, or depressed, or mentally handicapped, a burden on society, or any other basis. Therefore the murder of one's self cannot be justified on these grounds either.

On a semi-related chess theme, Gata Kamsky's father once threatened to kill GM Nigel Short, or so it was reported in a Chess magazine.
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:17 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Arrogant-One View Post
Ads for abortion on television!!!

That is very troubling indeed Hugo. At least in Australia abortions are done very low key and privately because the mothers and doctors know that what they are doing is wrong and therefore want to conceal the practise as much as they can. The only instance where abortion is justifiable is when, in the honest and genuine opinion of a qualified and experienced medical doctor, there is a substantial liklihood that death during child birth would result to the mother.

Regarding euthanasia, the issue is fundamentally the same in my view. Just as abortion is murder, so to is killing one's self (euthanasia). Murder of another person cannot be justified on the basis that the victim is in pain, or depressed, or mentally handicapped, a burden on society, or any other basis. Therefore the murder of one's self cannot be justified on these grounds either.

On a semi-related chess theme, Gata Kamsky's father once threatened to kill GM Nigel Short, or so it was reported in a Chess magazine.
Killing one's self isn't euthanasia, its suicide. Its also none of anybodies business except the person who makes the choice. People shouldn't need a committee of family and friends to decide for them whether they should kill themselves, it should be their choice alone.
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Old 09-23-2007, 05:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by phild707 View Post
All my views are based on my personal knowledge and experience.
I would be very interested to know what knowledge and experience you have in these areas?
Originally Posted by phild707 View Post
What are your views based on?
Which of my views are you asking about?
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Old 09-23-2007, 08:51 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Egor View Post
I would be very interested to know what knowledge and experience you have in these areas?

Which of my views are you asking about?
Most people would say they have personal knowledge about these types of matters, but how do you compare people's personal experiences?

Moreover, does having personal experience make someone's opinion superior on these issues compared to someone who doesn't have personal experience? I am not convinced of that, and think when we start comparing people's experiences in these areas in order to better validate their views, that becomes a slippery slope to travel down and ultimately circumvents the intertwined moral arguments.
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Old 09-23-2007, 10:40 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Arrogant-One View Post
Most people would say they have personal knowledge about these types of matters, but how do you compare people's personal experiences?

Moreover, does having personal experience make someone's opinion superior on these issues compared to someone who doesn't have personal experience? I am not convinced of that, and think when we start comparing people's experiences in these areas in order to better validate their views, that becomes a slippery slope to travel down and ultimately circumvents the intertwined moral arguments.
Very interesting observations AO. However, I have no intention to play a game of personal comparisions.
Phil has claimed that his views are based on his knowledge and experience. Therefor, I can only understand the basis of his views if I know what that knowledge and experience is.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:33 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Egor View Post
I would be very interested to know what knowledge and experience you have in these areas?
Your interest has been noted.


Originally Posted by Egor View Post
Which of my views are you asking about?
The question was rhetorical.
Sorry, I thought that was obvious.
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