Why Is The NSW State Championship An Open? - OzChess

**Firegoat7** · 09-04-2010, 11:51 AM

Hi,

The NSW executive had to do something about the dwindling numbers in their State championship. Fair enough, they have taken the brave step of turning the event into an open. But what does this say about NSW chess?

I mean an open is a very drastic step for the best tournament in the state. Junk rounds, withdrawals, etc.

Something is wrong in the state of NSW. They have the biggest participation numbers in the country. They have Olympiad representatives and Australia's strongest and former strongest player. Yet they cannot attract top players to an elite event.
Why?

My opinion is that the problem is macro. The ACF finances have been controlled by representatives from NSW for the last 20 years. In that time the ACF has not put any money into supporting what should be the best tournaments in the country. Instead they have left the job to private companies, whilst very important events, with rich cultural/historical traditions have been abandoned.

YES I blame the ACF. They do nothing but select their own private clubs.

cheers,

**antichrist** · 09-04-2010, 04:02 PM

Now FG, you are just having a stab at your old sparring partners Bill and Kev.

They have tried different formats etc for NSW Champ but not the really successful one yet.

Only the brave and diehards will committ themselves to a game a week for ages. Though the lesser players do so for grade and club games. could be even something to do with different and new entertainment and distractions for young people these days, with computers, cinemas etc. IN THE OLD DAYS they could not even play footie on Sundays or have a Chinese meal. But the cross was open esp for priests. (had to get that jab in).

How many attend the Vic champ and what is format?

**mowcop** · 09-05-2010, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

How many attend the Vic champ and what is format?

The Vic Champs is a 12-player round robin.

There is also a reserves round robin tournament that attracted 10 players this year.

I have no problem with a swiss event for a Championship, though I have to admit I enjoy playing in the round robins where every game is a tough test.

**Igor Goldenberg** · 09-15-2010, 11:03 AM

I think fixed schedule is often a problem. I had to miss last year Vic champ (and had a lot of troubles during this year) because of that.

**Firegoat7** · 10-02-2010, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Igor Goldenberg

I think fixed schedule is often a problem. I had to miss last year Vic champ (and had a lot of troubles during this year) because of that.

Well that is all part of it I guess. Would you prefer the Victorian championship to be a Swiss instead of a Round robin?.

cheers,

**antichrist** · 10-02-2010, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Well that is all part of it I guess. Would you prefer the Victorian championship to be a Swiss instead of a Round robin?.

cheers,

if the entry fees are high, and if lower-rated players insist on their "right" to want to play top players, then round robin is an attraction.

**Igor Goldenberg** · 10-05-2010, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Well that is all part of it I guess. Would you prefer the Victorian championship to be a Swiss instead of a Round robin?.

cheers,

I'd prefer it to be the format used for the last decade - when players can choose venues and sessions.

**Firegoat7** · 10-05-2010, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Igor Goldenberg

I'd prefer it to be the format used for the last decade - when players can choose venues and sessions.

There are some problems with the tail wagging the dog format. It creates logistical problems for the organisers. It requires a selective process to be mediated which creates further work for our volunteers. It prevents players from watching other games and knowing the tournament situation. It makes those unfamiliar with the game Sukudo, reluctant to figure out what is happening in the tournament. It makes it more difficult to provide professional support and to generate media sponsorship for the tournament

Of course for some players it is more flexible and convenient. It allows Neo conservative part time chess players with work commitments to balance their calender outside of chess. It allows the chess tournament to fit in around their busy INDIVIDUAL work commitments. It appears that being subsidised by the greater chess community with free entry is not enough anymore. The socialist model that offers 0% -100% risk/reward for the titled players is now deemed antiquated. Individual time is now the key motivating factor!

Please consider the free market scenario! In my personal case I had to wait a whole year for the pleasure of 1 1/2 hour train trips to Box Hill and Elwood, whilst working. Paying for the privilege of playing in an event that I qualified for in the previous year. Fortunately my employer understood the situation and allowed me to negotiate time off without pay on Thursday for 6 weeks! But there were only 2 Thursday games!

In conclusion I have no sympathy for your position. An elite chess tournament should start and finish within two weeks.It ought to be played at the time of the year that is most flexible to all of the players (ie. school/Christmas/University holidays) Games should be played everyday at one venue, preferably during daylight hours. Furthermore, I believe that every entrant in a 12 round robin event should pay $500-$5,000 for the privilege, on the proviso that at least 12 qualifying tournaments offer at least 1 free entry ticket to the event.

Forget about wagging the tail The dog should be put on a lead and house trained

cheers,

**antichrist** · 10-05-2010, 06:23 PM

Furthermore, I believe that every entrant in a 12 round robin event should pay $500-$5,000 for the privilege, on the proviso that at least 12 qualifying tournaments offer at least 1 free entry ticket to the event.

AC
But you must allow one or two free wildcard entries for those seriously too busy or some other valid reason for not be able to "qualify"

**Firegoat7** · 10-05-2010, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

But you must allow one or two free wildcard entries for those seriously too busy or some other valid reason for not be able to "qualify"

No. No. No.No

No there is no "...you must allow free entry"
No there is no "...free entry for those seriously too busy"
No there is no "...valid reason"
No there is no "...not able to qualify"

Your argument reminds me of why people still believe that Company bosses deserve multi million dollar bonus packages.

cheers,

**MOZ** · 10-05-2010, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

There are some problems with the tail wagging the dog format. It creates logistical problems for the organisers. It requires a selective process to be mediated which creates further work for our volunteers. It prevents players from watching other games and knowing the tournament situation. It makes those unfamiliar with the game Sukudo, reluctant to figure out what is happening in the tournament. It makes it more difficult to provide professional support and to generate media sponsorship for the tournament

It is inevitable that the tail has some influence over the dog.
Each format tried suits some but not others.
You seem to admit this in your next sentence. >

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Of course for some players it is more flexible and convenient.

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

It allows Neo conservative part time chess players with work commitments to balance their calender outside of chess. It allows the chess tournament to fit in around their busy INDIVIDUAL work commitments. It appears that being subsidised by the greater chess community with free entry is not enough anymore. The socialist model that offers 0% -100% risk/reward for the titled players is now deemed antiquated. Individual time is now the key motivating factor!

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Please consider the free market scenario! In my personal case I had to wait a whole year for the pleasure of 1 1/2 hour train trips to Box Hill and Elwood, whilst working. Paying for the privilege of playing in an event that I qualified for in the previous year. Fortunately my employer understood the situation and allowed me to negotiate time off without pay on Thursday for 6 weeks! But there were only 2 Thursday games!

Let me interpolate just here, because you are commenting on design #4 of recent years experiences:

First there was (for many years) the GW multi-venue/multi-time offering

Followed by the GH constrained version of this.

Followed third by the GH <all games in 2 weeks, with an attempt to have a time-frame that enabled Regional folk to play>.

Finally we have the LS version where the event was in 3 venues on prescribed times, and earlier in the year.

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

In conclusion I have no sympathy for your position. An elite chess tournament should start and finish within two weeks.It ought to be played at the time of the year that is most flexible to all of the players (ie. school/Christmas/University holidays) Games should be played everyday at one venue, preferably during daylight hours.

Version #3 was closest to this ^

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Furthermore, I believe that every entrant in a 12 round robin event should pay $500-$5,000 'prposal' for the privilege, on the proviso that at least 12 qualifying tournaments offer at least 1 free entry ticket to the event.

The tournament organiser essentially has to get office in Chess Victoria. That is, he has to stand for election in some form. If your $500-$5000 'proposal' was your platform it would certainly make for an interesting AGM.

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Forget about wagging the tail The dog should be put on a lead and house trained

cheers,

MOZ*

**antichrist** · 10-05-2010, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

No. No. No.No

No there is no "...you must allow free entry"
No there is no "...free entry for those seriously too busy"
No there is no "...valid reason"
No there is no "...not able to qualify"

Your argument reminds me of why people still believe that Company bosses deserve multi million dollar bonus packages.

cheers,

what about someone just migrated from overseas who just happens to be an extremely good player. I had one attend a Sydney Easter Cup and no one got near him (the Aussie top players being rated about 2100). And remarkedly he has not been seen since.

**Firegoat7** · 10-05-2010, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

what about someone just migrated from overseas who just happens to be an extremely good player. I had one attend a Sydney Easter Cup and no one got near him (the Aussie top players being rated about 2100). And remarkedly he has not been seen since.

Tough bikkies. Of course you would expect a $4,750-$47,500 would add to the attraction of winning the event next year.

cheers,

**antichrist** · 10-05-2010, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Tough bikkies. Of course you would expect a $4,750-$47,500 would add to the attraction of winning the event next year.

cheers,

so if Arianson(?) come over here chasing Arianne and wanted to play, and the exec knowing he would be a big drawcard with possible GM norms to be won, and he asked for a freebie, just as Tiger Woods got in that melb comp, you would not give him one?

**Firegoat7** · 10-05-2010, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by MOZ

The tournament organiser essentially has to get office in Chess Victoria. That is, he has to stand for election in some form. If your $500-$5000 'proposal' was your platform it would certainly make for an interesting AGM.

Thanks for the invitation Moz.
As you must be aware by now, I have no desire to hold any office of power for powers sake,unlike some of the current ACF officials.
However, if enough people were to talk about and discuss these ideas in a rational manner I feel certain that I could almost convince anybody that this is the way for competition chess to move forward.
If enough people believed in these ideas, and had the political will to follow through with such a plan, I could be swayed to occupy a position on Chess Victoria. But ONLY if most competitive chess players were genuinely convinced of the merits of such a system and wanted it to happen.

cheers,

09-04-2010, 11:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Why Is The NSW State Championship An Open? Hi, The NSW executive had to do something about the dwindling numbers in their State championship. Fair enough, they have taken the brave step of turning the event into an open. But what does this say about NSW chess? I mean an open is a very drastic step for the best tournament in the state. Junk rounds, withdrawals, etc. Something is wrong in the state of NSW. They have the biggest participation numbers in the country. They have Olympiad representatives and Australia's strongest and former strongest player. Yet they cannot attract top players to an elite event. Why? My opinion is that the problem is macro. The ACF finances have been controlled by representatives from NSW for the last 20 years. In that time the ACF has not put any money into supporting what should be the best tournaments in the country. Instead they have left the job to private companies, whilst very important events, with rich cultural/historical traditions have been abandoned. YES I blame the ACF. They do nothing but select their own private clubs. cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

09-05-2010, 05:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
mowcop fireeater Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 825	Originally Posted by antichrist How many attend the Vic champ and what is format? The Vic Champs is a 12-player round robin. There is also a reserves round robin tournament that attracted 10 players this year. I have no problem with a swiss event for a Championship, though I have to admit I enjoy playing in the round robins where every game is a tough test. __________________ Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand I'm trying out a new blog site..... http://gorkachc.blogspot.com/

09-15-2010, 11:03 AM	#4 (permalink)
Igor Goldenberg Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 331	I think fixed schedule is often a problem. I had to miss last year Vic champ (and had a lot of troubles during this year) because of that. __________________ For private coaching email IgorGoldenberg@bluebottle.com Computer tells you what to play, a good coach explains why. The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. H. L. Mencken

10-02-2010, 10:07 PM	#5 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by Igor Goldenberg I think fixed schedule is often a problem. I had to miss last year Vic champ (and had a lot of troubles during this year) because of that. Well that is all part of it I guess. Would you prefer the Victorian championship to be a Swiss instead of a Round robin?. cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

10-02-2010, 10:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Well that is all part of it I guess. Would you prefer the Victorian championship to be a Swiss instead of a Round robin?. cheers, if the entry fees are high, and if lower-rated players insist on their "right" to want to play top players, then round robin is an attraction.

09-04-2010, 04:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Now FG, you are just having a stab at your old sparring partners Bill and Kev. They have tried different formats etc for NSW Champ but not the really successful one yet. Only the brave and diehards will committ themselves to a game a week for ages. Though the lesser players do so for grade and club games. could be even something to do with different and new entertainment and distractions for young people these days, with computers, cinemas etc. IN THE OLD DAYS they could not even play footie on Sundays or have a Chinese meal. But the cross was open esp for priests. (had to get that jab in). How many attend the Vic champ and what is format?

10-05-2010, 03:47 PM	#7 (permalink)
Igor Goldenberg Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 331	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Well that is all part of it I guess. Would you prefer the Victorian championship to be a Swiss instead of a Round robin?. cheers, I'd prefer it to be the format used for the last decade - when players can choose venues and sessions. __________________ For private coaching email IgorGoldenberg@bluebottle.com Computer tells you what to play, a good coach explains why. The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. H. L. Mencken

10-05-2010, 04:54 PM	#8 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by Igor Goldenberg I'd prefer it to be the format used for the last decade - when players can choose venues and sessions. There are some problems with the tail wagging the dog format. It creates logistical problems for the organisers. It requires a selective process to be mediated which creates further work for our volunteers. It prevents players from watching other games and knowing the tournament situation. It makes those unfamiliar with the game Sukudo, reluctant to figure out what is happening in the tournament. It makes it more difficult to provide professional support and to generate media sponsorship for the tournament Of course for some players it is more flexible and convenient. It allows Neo conservative part time chess players with work commitments to balance their calender outside of chess. It allows the chess tournament to fit in around their busy INDIVIDUAL work commitments. It appears that being subsidised by the greater chess community with free entry is not enough anymore. The socialist model that offers 0% -100% risk/reward for the titled players is now deemed antiquated. Individual time is now the key motivating factor! Please consider the free market scenario! In my personal case I had to wait a whole year for the pleasure of 1 1/2 hour train trips to Box Hill and Elwood, whilst working. Paying for the privilege of playing in an event that I qualified for in the previous year. Fortunately my employer understood the situation and allowed me to negotiate time off without pay on Thursday for 6 weeks! But there were only 2 Thursday games! In conclusion I have no sympathy for your position. An elite chess tournament should start and finish within two weeks.It ought to be played at the time of the year that is most flexible to all of the players (ie. school/Christmas/University holidays) Games should be played everyday at one venue, preferably during daylight hours. Furthermore, I believe that every entrant in a 12 round robin event should pay $500-$5,000 for the privilege, on the proviso that at least 12 qualifying tournaments offer at least 1 free entry ticket to the event. Forget about wagging the tail The dog should be put on a lead and house trained cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

10-05-2010, 06:23 PM	#9 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Furthermore, I believe that every entrant in a 12 round robin event should pay $500-$5,000 for the privilege, on the proviso that at least 12 qualifying tournaments offer at least 1 free entry ticket to the event. AC But you must allow one or two free wildcard entries for those seriously too busy or some other valid reason for not be able to "qualify"

10-05-2010, 07:22 PM	#10 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by antichrist But you must allow one or two free wildcard entries for those seriously too busy or some other valid reason for not be able to "qualify" No. No. No.No No there is no "...you must allow free entry" No there is no "...free entry for those seriously too busy" No there is no "...valid reason" No there is no "...not able to qualify" Your argument reminds me of why people still believe that Company bosses deserve multi million dollar bonus packages. cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

10-05-2010, 08:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
MOZ Volunteer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ozchess is the marginalised cyber-spot where cc-Mods choose to engage with cc-banned posters. Posts: 3,541	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 There are some problems with the tail wagging the dog format. It creates logistical problems for the organisers. It requires a selective process to be mediated which creates further work for our volunteers. It prevents players from watching other games and knowing the tournament situation. It makes those unfamiliar with the game Sukudo, reluctant to figure out what is happening in the tournament. It makes it more difficult to provide professional support and to generate media sponsorship for the tournament It is inevitable that the tail has some influence over the dog. Each format tried suits some but not others. You seem to admit this in your next sentence. > Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Of course for some players it is more flexible and convenient. Originally Posted by Firegoat7 It allows Neo conservative part time chess players with work commitments to balance their calender outside of chess. It allows the chess tournament to fit in around their busy INDIVIDUAL work commitments. It appears that being subsidised by the greater chess community with free entry is not enough anymore. The socialist model that offers 0% -100% risk/reward for the titled players is now deemed antiquated. Individual time is now the key motivating factor! Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Please consider the free market scenario! In my personal case I had to wait a whole year for the pleasure of 1 1/2 hour train trips to Box Hill and Elwood, whilst working. Paying for the privilege of playing in an event that I qualified for in the previous year. Fortunately my employer understood the situation and allowed me to negotiate time off without pay on Thursday for 6 weeks! But there were only 2 Thursday games! Let me interpolate just here, because you are commenting on design #4 of recent years experiences: First there was (for many years) the GW multi-venue/multi-time offering Followed by the GH constrained version of this. Followed third by the GH <all games in 2 weeks, with an attempt to have a time-frame that enabled Regional folk to play>. Finally we have the LS version where the event was in 3 venues on prescribed times, and earlier in the year. Originally Posted by Firegoat7 In conclusion I have no sympathy for your position. An elite chess tournament should start and finish within two weeks.It ought to be played at the time of the year that is most flexible to all of the players (ie. school/Christmas/University holidays) Games should be played everyday at one venue, preferably during daylight hours. Version #3 was closest to this ^ Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Furthermore, I believe that every entrant in a 12 round robin event should pay $500-$5,000 'prposal' for the privilege, on the proviso that at least 12 qualifying tournaments offer at least 1 free entry ticket to the event. The tournament organiser essentially has to get office in Chess Victoria. That is, he has to stand for election in some form. If your $500-$5000 'proposal' was your platform it would certainly make for an interesting AGM. Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Forget about wagging the tail The dog should be put on a lead and house trained cheers, MOZ* __________________ FReedom though Fischer-Random chess to enjoy the whole game.

10-05-2010, 08:40 PM	#12 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 No. No. No.No No there is no "...you must allow free entry" No there is no "...free entry for those seriously too busy" No there is no "...valid reason" No there is no "...not able to qualify" Your argument reminds me of why people still believe that Company bosses deserve multi million dollar bonus packages. cheers, what about someone just migrated from overseas who just happens to be an extremely good player. I had one attend a Sydney Easter Cup and no one got near him (the Aussie top players being rated about 2100). And remarkedly he has not been seen since.

10-05-2010, 09:57 PM	#13 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by antichrist what about someone just migrated from overseas who just happens to be an extremely good player. I had one attend a Sydney Easter Cup and no one got near him (the Aussie top players being rated about 2100). And remarkedly he has not been seen since. Tough bikkies. Of course you would expect a $4,750-$47,500 would add to the attraction of winning the event next year. cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

10-05-2010, 10:12 PM	#14 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Tough bikkies. Of course you would expect a $4,750-$47,500 would add to the attraction of winning the event next year. cheers, so if Arianson(?) come over here chasing Arianne and wanted to play, and the exec knowing he would be a big drawcard with possible GM norms to be won, and he asked for a freebie, just as Tiger Woods got in that melb comp, you would not give him one?

10-05-2010, 10:23 PM	#15 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by MOZ The tournament organiser essentially has to get office in Chess Victoria. That is, he has to stand for election in some form. If your $500-$5000 'proposal' was your platform it would certainly make for an interesting AGM. Thanks for the invitation Moz. As you must be aware by now, I have no desire to hold any office of power for powers sake,unlike some of the current ACF officials. However, if enough people were to talk about and discuss these ideas in a rational manner I feel certain that I could almost convince anybody that this is the way for competition chess to move forward. If enough people believed in these ideas, and had the political will to follow through with such a plan, I could be swayed to occupy a position on Chess Victoria. But ONLY if most competitive chess players were genuinely convinced of the merits of such a system and wanted it to happen. cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

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