Age vs Chess - OzChess

**Jaz** · 02-11-2009, 03:34 PM

I learned the rules of chess in my teens, but I have never taken it seriously. Chess has always been a past-time for me. I have heard lots of stories about grandmasters who have started playing chess just after getting out of diapers and then studying it to become what they have now become. I'm interested in your (especially Axiom's and AO's) view on this and when did you start taking chess seriously and how long it has taken for you to make it to this level.

**french_defence** · 02-11-2009, 05:36 PM

Hi forum..this is my 1st post

Back to topic..Jaz, i guess if you want to be professional then u have to start young. Like yourself, i learn and played on and off since young and didn't have any training.
I picked up this game again 3 yrs ago, seriously, played in some competition, read some books, played online and trained at home. I got to a rating of around 1900 2 yrs ago (not playing now)
Well, if u train and study, u should improve as anyone else. But to GM level, it should take more than that i guess
Cheers

**Just2Good** · 02-12-2009, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by french_defence

But to GM level, it should take more than that i guess
Cheers

Hi French

What about people who are born with Grandmaster skills?

AO

**vagrantnomad** · 02-13-2009, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

Hi French

What about people who are born with Grandmaster skills?

AO

not many people know about them because they are so rare AO!

**AzzX** · 02-13-2009, 10:13 AM

There are a few Child prodigies who can compete at the highest level and even achieve Grandmaster status well before puberty. I think the attached list is the most up to date one.

Chess is unique in that it can be played with anyone as soon as you have learned the rules, being a child genius with a photographic memory helps as well.

Source: ChessBase.com - Chess News - Chess prodigies and mini-grandmasters

**french_defence** · 02-13-2009, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

Hi French

What about people who are born with Grandmaster skills?

AO

Thats exactly why i said i would take more than just normal training to reach GM level

...Those GMs must have something unique, no doubt. However i doubt for those with unique abilities, without training and persistence, they can't reach top level. I knowsome child prodigies stop developing once they reached just Master level.
So i guess you are right some people may be born with some GM skills/abilities like calculation/memory but there remains other essential skills to develop.
And there may be other factors as well....character springs to mind

**Just2Good** · 02-13-2009, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by vagrantnomad

not many people know about them because they are so rare AO!

You mean I am one of a kind?

**Just2Good** · 02-13-2009, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by french_defence

Thats exactly why i said i would take more than just normal training to reach GM level ...Those GMs must have something unique, no doubt. However i doubt for those with unique abilities, without training and persistence, they can't reach top level. I knowsome child prodigies stop developing once they reached just Master level.
So i guess you are right some people may be born with some GM skills/abilities like calculation/memory but there remains other essential skills to develop.
And there may be other factors as well....character springs to mind

I agree that in most cases what you are saying above is 100% true. However, there is the peculiar case of Grandmaster Zuniga of Argentina who claims he had only read one chess book in his life before becoming a Grandmaster.

I don't know if he had coaching, but to have only read one chess book before becoming a GM is quite something.

Best Regards,

AO

**Just2Good** · 02-13-2009, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by AzzX

There are a few Child prodigies who can compete at the highest level and even achieve Grandmaster status well before puberty. I think the attached list is the most up to date one.

Chess is unique in that it can be played with anyone as soon as you have learned the rules, being a child genius with a photographic memory helps as well.

Fischer barely makes the list anymore which is kind of funny, but the fact remains when Fischer did it, it is was probably a lot harder to achieve because there would have been less international tournaments in those days and a more limited ability to attend them.

Also, most of the GM's in those days would likely have been Soviets, so opportunities to compete against them could have been limited by the frosty international relationship between the USA and the USSR.

Lastly, Fischer is the only one on the list to go on to become World Chess Champion, although, that said - many people believe that Magnus Carlsen is likely to reach that pinnacle at some stage.

**Simon** · 03-06-2009, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jaz

I learned the rules of chess in my teens, but I have never taken it seriously. Chess has always been a past-time for me. I have heard lots of stories about grandmasters who have started playing chess just after getting out of diapers and then studying it to become what they have now become. I'm interested in your (especially Axiom's and AO's) view on this and when did you start taking chess seriously and how long it has taken for you to make it to this level.

At 14, less than two years after he had learned the moves of chess, Botvinnik defeated the then-current world champion, José Raúl Capablanca, in one game of an exhibition in which Capablanca played simultaneously against several opponents. So I guess maybe age and experience isn't everything.

**ElmirGuseinov** · 04-16-2009, 07:11 PM

there is the peculiar case of Grandmaster Zuniga of Argentina who claims he had only read one chess book in his life before becoming a Grandmaster.

I don't know if he had coaching, but to have only read one chess book before becoming a GM is quite something.

Dont believe him

)
He didnt read books,he read Chess Informants and chess magazines with games.
Also nowdays there are many educational programs available like CT-Art,Strategy,Middlegame 1,2,3 from begenner level to master - so not much need in books.

But I beleive that Capablance hadnt kept even a chess board at home (famous fact).
Also people (GM Byrn or Mednis) visited several times Reshevsky and the last one had only pocket chess in his house..Though he was many times US champion and one of the worlds strongest players.He kept playing in tournament till 1991.

**Calvin** · 04-16-2009, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by ElmirGuseinov

Also people (GM Byrn or Mednis) visited several times Reshevsky and the last one had only pocket chess in his house..Though he was many times US champion and one of the worlds strongest players.He kept playing in tournament till 1991.

Does that mean maybe they thought too much practice would be bad for their chess, or maybe they could not afford a chess set and board?

**Just2Good** · 04-16-2009, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by ElmirGuseinov

Also nowdays there are many educational programs available like CT-Art,Strategy,Middlegame 1,2,3 from begenner level to master - so not much need in books.

Just one method of education to become a Master? I would have thought it would be a combination of things, such as books, one on one lessons, online training, etc?

**ElmirGuseinov** · 04-16-2009, 09:05 PM

Does that mean maybe they thought too much practice would be bad for their chess, or maybe they could not afford a chess set and board?

This means they were ultra-talanted chessplayers,who didnt work much on chess.
Of course, we can find many players like them from early beginnings of chess till late 70s.But nowdays ,of course, such approach wont work!Professional chess forces people to work and analyze from 8 hours a day without weekends no matter how talanted you are.

Just one method of education to become a Master? I would have thought it would be a combination of things, such as books, one on one lessons, online training, etc?

Of course,combining methods,working on different sides of the game will work much better!
But I know a lot of coaches and parents who just train their kids like this and , believe me, it works too..
Especially now, with time controls of 90 minutes its enough to have good opening preparation and calculation skills to become a master.
Many young IMs and GMs now havent studied Rubinstein or Botvinnik and still show good results.Unfortunately

**Just2Good** · 04-16-2009, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by ElmirGuseinov

... nowdays ,of course, such approach wont work!Professional chess forces people to work and analyze from 8 hours a day without weekends no matter how talanted you are.

What if you have Grandmaster potential like myself? Hubner once said my playing style was similiar to GM Speelman's! So, presumably, if I wanted to become a titled IM or GM, because of my natural talent - I wouldn't need to spend THAT much time studying chess.

02-11-2009, 03:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jaz Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 87	Age vs Chess I learned the rules of chess in my teens, but I have never taken it seriously. Chess has always been a past-time for me. I have heard lots of stories about grandmasters who have started playing chess just after getting out of diapers and then studying it to become what they have now become. I'm interested in your (especially Axiom's and AO's) view on this and when did you start taking chess seriously and how long it has taken for you to make it to this level.

02-12-2009, 08:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by french_defence But to GM level, it should take more than that i guess Cheers Hi French What about people who are born with Grandmaster skills? AO __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

02-13-2009, 01:18 AM	#4 (permalink)
vagrantnomad Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: qld at the moment Posts: 272	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One Hi French What about people who are born with Grandmaster skills? AO not many people know about them because they are so rare AO!

02-13-2009, 10:56 AM	#6 (permalink)
french_defence Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One Hi French What about people who are born with Grandmaster skills? AO Thats exactly why i said i would take more than just normal training to reach GM level ...Those GMs must have something unique, no doubt. However i doubt for those with unique abilities, without training and persistence, they can't reach top level. I knowsome child prodigies stop developing once they reached just Master level. So i guess you are right some people may be born with some GM skills/abilities like calculation/memory but there remains other essential skills to develop. And there may be other factors as well....character springs to mind

02-13-2009, 12:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by vagrantnomad not many people know about them because they are so rare AO! You mean I am one of a kind? __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

02-11-2009, 05:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
french_defence Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2	Hi forum..this is my 1st post Back to topic..Jaz, i guess if you want to be professional then u have to start young. Like yourself, i learn and played on and off since young and didn't have any training. I picked up this game again 3 yrs ago, seriously, played in some competition, read some books, played online and trained at home. I got to a rating of around 1900 2 yrs ago (not playing now) Well, if u train and study, u should improve as anyone else. But to GM level, it should take more than that i guess Cheers

02-13-2009, 01:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by french_defence Thats exactly why i said i would take more than just normal training to reach GM level ...Those GMs must have something unique, no doubt. However i doubt for those with unique abilities, without training and persistence, they can't reach top level. I knowsome child prodigies stop developing once they reached just Master level. So i guess you are right some people may be born with some GM skills/abilities like calculation/memory but there remains other essential skills to develop. And there may be other factors as well....character springs to mind I agree that in most cases what you are saying above is 100% true. However, there is the peculiar case of Grandmaster Zuniga of Argentina who claims he had only read one chess book in his life before becoming a Grandmaster. I don't know if he had coaching, but to have only read one chess book before becoming a GM is quite something. Best Regards, AO __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

02-13-2009, 01:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by AzzX There are a few Child prodigies who can compete at the highest level and even achieve Grandmaster status well before puberty. I think the attached list is the most up to date one. Chess is unique in that it can be played with anyone as soon as you have learned the rules, being a child genius with a photographic memory helps as well. Fischer barely makes the list anymore which is kind of funny, but the fact remains when Fischer did it, it is was probably a lot harder to achieve because there would have been less international tournaments in those days and a more limited ability to attend them. Also, most of the GM's in those days would likely have been Soviets, so opportunities to compete against them could have been limited by the frosty international relationship between the USA and the USSR. Lastly, Fischer is the only one on the list to go on to become World Chess Champion, although, that said - many people believe that Magnus Carlsen is likely to reach that pinnacle at some stage. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

03-06-2009, 09:33 PM	#10 (permalink)
Simon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 182	Originally Posted by Jaz I learned the rules of chess in my teens, but I have never taken it seriously. Chess has always been a past-time for me. I have heard lots of stories about grandmasters who have started playing chess just after getting out of diapers and then studying it to become what they have now become. I'm interested in your (especially Axiom's and AO's) view on this and when did you start taking chess seriously and how long it has taken for you to make it to this level. At 14, less than two years after he had learned the moves of chess, Botvinnik defeated the then-current world champion, José Raúl Capablanca, in one game of an exhibition in which Capablanca played simultaneously against several opponents. So I guess maybe age and experience isn't everything.

04-16-2009, 07:11 PM	#11 (permalink)
ElmirGuseinov Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 21	there is the peculiar case of Grandmaster Zuniga of Argentina who claims he had only read one chess book in his life before becoming a Grandmaster. I don't know if he had coaching, but to have only read one chess book before becoming a GM is quite something. Dont believe him ) He didnt read books,he read Chess Informants and chess magazines with games. Also nowdays there are many educational programs available like CT-Art,Strategy,Middlegame 1,2,3 from begenner level to master - so not much need in books. But I beleive that Capablance hadnt kept even a chess board at home (famous fact). Also people (GM Byrn or Mednis) visited several times Reshevsky and the last one had only pocket chess in his house..Though he was many times US champion and one of the worlds strongest players.He kept playing in tournament till 1991.

04-16-2009, 07:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
Calvin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 268	Originally Posted by ElmirGuseinov Also people (GM Byrn or Mednis) visited several times Reshevsky and the last one had only pocket chess in his house..Though he was many times US champion and one of the worlds strongest players.He kept playing in tournament till 1991. Does that mean maybe they thought too much practice would be bad for their chess, or maybe they could not afford a chess set and board?

04-16-2009, 08:03 PM	#13 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by ElmirGuseinov Also nowdays there are many educational programs available like CT-Art,Strategy,Middlegame 1,2,3 from begenner level to master - so not much need in books. Just one method of education to become a Master? I would have thought it would be a combination of things, such as books, one on one lessons, online training, etc? __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

04-16-2009, 09:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
ElmirGuseinov Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 21	Does that mean maybe they thought too much practice would be bad for their chess, or maybe they could not afford a chess set and board? This means they were ultra-talanted chessplayers,who didnt work much on chess. Of course, we can find many players like them from early beginnings of chess till late 70s.But nowdays ,of course, such approach wont work!Professional chess forces people to work and analyze from 8 hours a day without weekends no matter how talanted you are. Just one method of education to become a Master? I would have thought it would be a combination of things, such as books, one on one lessons, online training, etc? Of course,combining methods,working on different sides of the game will work much better! But I know a lot of coaches and parents who just train their kids like this and , believe me, it works too.. Especially now, with time controls of 90 minutes its enough to have good opening preparation and calculation skills to become a master. Many young IMs and GMs now havent studied Rubinstein or Botvinnik and still show good results.Unfortunately

04-16-2009, 09:44 PM	#15 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by ElmirGuseinov ... nowdays ,of course, such approach wont work!Professional chess forces people to work and analyze from 8 hours a day without weekends no matter how talanted you are. What if you have Grandmaster potential like myself? Hubner once said my playing style was similiar to GM Speelman's! So, presumably, if I wanted to become a titled IM or GM, because of my natural talent - I wouldn't need to spend THAT much time studying chess. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

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