Junior Chess Players - OzChess

**Just2Good** · 02-10-2008, 01:35 PM

This is a quote from Chess Master and author Bruce Pandolfini:

People often ask me, "How can you tell if a kid has talent?" By observing how a child looks at the board, I can tell if the child has a sensitivity to the game. When most children look at the board, they stare at a single point. But chess is a game of spatial relations. If I see a lot of eye movement, that's usually a reflection of real thinking. The thinking may be incorrect -- kids are kids -- but that eye movement tells me that the child may have something.

Its an interesting point but I don't think I entirely agree. For instance, if there is one part of the board where all the action is currently taking place, then you usually wouldn't need to look over the entire board.

**Sobriquet** · 11-05-2008, 10:29 PM

The link
says
ELIGIBILITY
The right to participate in the championships is granted to players
who pay the required Entry Fee;
whose entries are accepted before the maximum number of players is reached;
whose participation is approved by parents or guardians;
whose year of birth is 1990 or later;
who are able to satisfy the competition director that they are or intend to be residents of Victoria for the foreseeable future;
who have been notified by the competition director that a Special Application for exemption from specified requirements has been granted.

restricts the tournament to Victorian players.
Is there a similar rule operating in other States?
Are the national junior titles so constrained?

**Ninja** · 11-06-2008, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Sobriquet

The link
says
ELIGIBILITY
who have been notified by the competition director that a Special Application for exemption from specified requirements has been granted.

restricts the tournament to Victorian players.
Is there a similar rule operating in other States?
Are the national junior titles so constrained?

Nothing to stop someone applying for an exemption from the above requirements. Having said that you might read further down the rules that anyone given a special exemption allowing them to play is not elegible for a state title. Makes sense I would have thought if the idea of the title was to acknowledge the top player in the state at that age level.

**Sobriquet** · 11-06-2008, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Ninja

Nothing to stop someone applying for an exemption from the above requirements. Having said that you might read further down the rules that anyone given a special exemption allowing them to play is not elegible for a state title. Makes sense I would have thought if the idea of the title was to acknowledge the top player in the state at that age level.

Agree the EXEMPTION get-out gives discretion to the Tournament Committee in regard to participation by non-Victorians. I would be interpreting this to mean SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, for participation, rather than just the single exclusion from holding the local title for non-Victorians. Other interpretations are possible of course.

The question remains, what do other States require.

**Igor Goldenberg** · 11-06-2008, 11:11 AM

It is hard to measure talent. IMHO, it's how they see and feel the board. Talented child can visualise the board without seeing it.
For example, ask him to close his eyes and tell all the squares on e1-a5 diagonal (or something similar). Check how easy or difficult it is.

Of course, it's not exhaustive

**Chess-King** · 11-10-2008, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Igor Goldenberg

It is hard to measure talent. IMHO, it's how they see and feel the board. Talented child can visualise the board without seeing it.
For example, ask him to close his eyes and tell all the squares on e1-a5 diagonal (or something similar). Check how easy or difficult it is.

Of course, it's not exhaustive

I thought measuring talent would have been easy enough. In Camelot we measure a youngster's talent based his over the board results. If he wins a lot, then he has talent. But if youngsters lose a lot, then we encourage them to take up farming!

**LearningChess** · 11-12-2008, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Chess-King

I thought measuring talent would have been easy enough. In Camelot we measure a youngster's talent based his over the board results. If he wins a lot, then he has talent. But if youngsters lose a lot, then we encourage them to take up farming!

Are there any options in between, or at least something other than farming?

**Zeitgeist** · 01-13-2009, 11:17 PM

Titles in Junior Events are significant milestones in a players career.
C Antolis and S Yu have just achieved permanent recognition with special wins in the Australian Junior titles for 2009.
Chess Victoria should make an all-out effort to test the current crop of youngsters in the midyear Victorian junior Championships. This is another of the titles that will mark a players place in honour roles.
Top players include

2153! 17 VIC Wallis, Christopher
2085!! 10 VIC Cheng, Bobby
2009! 14 VIC Dalton, Samuel
1931!! 13 VIC Schon, Eugene
1889! 13 VIC Antolis, Cedric
1826!! 11 VIC Matheson, Laurence
1811! 15 VIC Yu, Derek
1791! 14 VIC Tang, Jason
1739! 9 VIC Chan, Michael

Others may emerge in the next 5 months since improvement is rapid among top juniors.

**Virgil** · 01-17-2009, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Zeitgeist

Titles in Junior Events are significant milestones in a players career.
C Antolis and S Yu have just achieved permanent recognition with special wins in the Australian Junior titles for 2009.
Chess Victoria should make an all-out effort to test the current crop of youngsters in the midyear Victorian junior Championships. This is another of the titles that will mark a players place in honor roles.
Top players include

2153! 17 VIC Wallis, Christopher
2085!! 10 VIC Cheng, Bobby
2009! 14 VIC Dalton, Samuel
1931!! 13 VIC Schon, Eugene
1889! 13 VIC Antolis, Cedric
1826!! 11 VIC Matheson, Laurence
1811! 15 VIC Yu, Derek
1791! 14 VIC Tang, Jason
1739! 9 VIC Chan, Michael

Others may emerge in the next 5 months since improvement is rapid among top juniors.

^

This list sort of provokes the question which players have already stamped their position in history with a title and in particular the U18 Title.
The CV web-site is remarkably quiet on this score as far as I can see.
So, a little research among bulletin boards reveals this first stanza.

2004 Victorian Junior Titles.

Victorian Junior Champion Denis Bourmistrov
Victorian Under-16 Champion Dusan Stojic
Victorian Under-14 Champion Ruperto Lugo
Victorian Girls Champion Casey Hickman
Victorian Under-16 Girls Champion Elena Galiabovich
Victorian Under-14 Girls Champion Vanja Rozenblat
Victorian Under-12 Champion Rengan Vijayakumar
Victorian Under 10 Champion Eugene Schön
Victorian Under-12 Girls Champion Sally Yu
Victorian Under-10 Girls Champion Shuyu Wang
Winner Under-8 Laurence Matheson

To the best of my knowledge all these still play in Australia except for Casey Hickman and Ruperto Lugo.

**Simon** · 01-17-2009, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Virgil

^

This list sort of provokes the question which players have already stamped their position in history with a title and in particular the U18 Title.
The CV web-site is remarkably quiet on this score as far as I can see.
So, a little research among bulletin boards reveals this first stanza.

2004 Victorian Junior Titles.

Victorian Junior Champion Denis Bourmistrov
Victorian Under-16 Champion Dusan Stojic
Victorian Under-14 Champion Ruperto Lugo
Victorian Girls Champion Casey Hickman
Victorian Under-16 Girls Champion Elena Galiabovich
Victorian Under-14 Girls Champion Vanja Rozenblat
Victorian Under-12 Champion Rengan Vijayakumar
Victorian Under 10 Champion Eugene Schön
Victorian Under-12 Girls Champion Sally Yu
Victorian Under-10 Girls Champion Shuyu Wang
Winner Under-8 Laurence Matheson

To the best of my knowledge all these still play in Australia except for Casey Hickman(O/S) and Ruperto Lugo.

None of these players have gone on to become titled players, apart from fide master.

**Virgil** · 01-17-2009, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

None of these players have gone on to become titled players, apart from fide master.

True
But I thought the thrust of the original quote was the interest in winning State title events rather than the higher FIDE titles before they drift out of the age bracket of U18 <never to return

>.

**Virgil** · 01-17-2009, 06:59 PM

My earlier post has piqued the interest of the poster named Il cavaliere inesistente.
He advises a 2003 data-set is available.

Under 18 Open Denis Bourmistrov
Under 18 Girls Michelle Lee

Under 16 Open Sam Chow
Under 16 Girls

Under 14 Open Rukman Vijayakumar
Under 14 Girls

Under 12 Open Rengan Vijayakumar
Under 12 Girls

Under 10 Open Samuel Dalton
Under 10 Girls Shu-Yu Wang

Under 8 Open: David Toper
Under 8 Girls

All of this set remain active except for Michelle Lee.

Data prior to 2003 was probably collected by the Chess Kids organisation. I hope they can assist with this re-construction.

**Il cavaliere inesistente** · 01-17-2009, 10:46 PM

It would be of benefit if all results collected for the period since the Canterbury Chess Club has organised the Vic Junior on behalf of CV were published in one table. I would do it myself if I knew how to get excel format into this post. There are some inaccurancies. Shuyu Wang is also a retired player. It is incorrect to say that results are not available on the CV web site, they just take a bit of finding. It is interesting to see how players progress when the full list is published

**MOZ** · 01-18-2009, 02:59 PM

test upload

**MOZ** · 01-18-2009, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Il cavaliere inesistente

It would be of benefit if all results collected for the period since the Canterbury Chess Club has organised the Vic Junior on behalf of CV were published in one table. I would do it myself if I knew how to get excel format into this post. There are some inaccurancies. Shuyu Wang is also a retired player. It is incorrect to say that results are not available on the CV web site, they just take a bit of finding. It is interesting to see how players progress when the full list is published

Hard to resist googling your nickname.
The knight does not exist

The Admin. here has now activated the .xls file-type upload. Thanks AO.

I half-thought Shuyu Wang was on this page.

-----------------
Successful upload in post #14 of this thread.
Note that it appears as an attachment, not as an easily visible table. The draw-back of an attachment is that it can only be viewed by those who are formally logged in. It can't be seen by guests.

02-10-2008, 01:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Junior Chess Players This is a quote from Chess Master and author Bruce Pandolfini: People often ask me, "How can you tell if a kid has talent?" By observing how a child looks at the board, I can tell if the child has a sensitivity to the game. When most children look at the board, they stare at a single point. But chess is a game of spatial relations. If I see a lot of eye movement, that's usually a reflection of real thinking. The thinking may be incorrect -- kids are kids -- but that eye movement tells me that the child may have something. Its an interesting point but I don't think I entirely agree. For instance, if there is one part of the board where all the action is currently taking place, then you usually wouldn't need to look over the entire board. __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

11-06-2008, 01:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ninja Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 124	Originally Posted by Sobriquet The link says ELIGIBILITY who have been notified by the competition director that a Special Application for exemption from specified requirements has been granted. restricts the tournament to Victorian players. Is there a similar rule operating in other States? Are the national junior titles so constrained? Nothing to stop someone applying for an exemption from the above requirements. Having said that you might read further down the rules that anyone given a special exemption allowing them to play is not elegible for a state title. Makes sense I would have thought if the idea of the title was to acknowledge the top player in the state at that age level.

11-06-2008, 08:37 AM	#4 (permalink)
Sobriquet Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 128	Originally Posted by Ninja Nothing to stop someone applying for an exemption from the above requirements. Having said that you might read further down the rules that anyone given a special exemption allowing them to play is not elegible for a state title. Makes sense I would have thought if the idea of the title was to acknowledge the top player in the state at that age level. Agree the EXEMPTION get-out gives discretion to the Tournament Committee in regard to participation by non-Victorians. I would be interpreting this to mean SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, for participation, rather than just the single exclusion from holding the local title for non-Victorians. Other interpretations are possible of course. The question remains, what do other States require.

11-06-2008, 11:11 AM	#5 (permalink)
Igor Goldenberg Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 329	It is hard to measure talent. IMHO, it's how they see and feel the board. Talented child can visualise the board without seeing it. For example, ask him to close his eyes and tell all the squares on e1-a5 diagonal (or something similar). Check how easy or difficult it is. Of course, it's not exhaustive __________________ For private coaching email IgorGoldenberg@bluebottle.com Computer tells you what to play, a good coach explains why. The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. H. L. Mencken

11-10-2008, 01:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
Chess-King Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 17	Originally Posted by Igor Goldenberg It is hard to measure talent. IMHO, it's how they see and feel the board. Talented child can visualise the board without seeing it. For example, ask him to close his eyes and tell all the squares on e1-a5 diagonal (or something similar). Check how easy or difficult it is. Of course, it's not exhaustive I thought measuring talent would have been easy enough. In Camelot we measure a youngster's talent based his over the board results. If he wins a lot, then he has talent. But if youngsters lose a lot, then we encourage them to take up farming!

11-05-2008, 10:29 PM	#2 (permalink)
Sobriquet Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 128	The link says ELIGIBILITY The right to participate in the championships is granted to players who pay the required Entry Fee; whose entries are accepted before the maximum number of players is reached; whose participation is approved by parents or guardians; whose year of birth is 1990 or later; who are able to satisfy the competition director that they are or intend to be residents of Victoria for the foreseeable future; who have been notified by the competition director that a Special Application for exemption from specified requirements has been granted. restricts the tournament to Victorian players. Is there a similar rule operating in other States? Are the national junior titles so constrained?

11-12-2008, 07:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
LearningChess I like chess! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Armidale, NSW Posts: 20	Originally Posted by Chess-King I thought measuring talent would have been easy enough. In Camelot we measure a youngster's talent based his over the board results. If he wins a lot, then he has talent. But if youngsters lose a lot, then we encourage them to take up farming! Are there any options in between, or at least something other than farming?

01-13-2009, 11:17 PM	#8 (permalink)
Zeitgeist Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 35	Titles in Junior Events are significant milestones in a players career. C Antolis and S Yu have just achieved permanent recognition with special wins in the Australian Junior titles for 2009. Chess Victoria should make an all-out effort to test the current crop of youngsters in the midyear Victorian junior Championships. This is another of the titles that will mark a players place in honour roles. Top players include 2153! 17 VIC Wallis, Christopher 2085!! 10 VIC Cheng, Bobby 2009! 14 VIC Dalton, Samuel 1931!! 13 VIC Schon, Eugene 1889! 13 VIC Antolis, Cedric 1826!! 11 VIC Matheson, Laurence 1811! 15 VIC Yu, Derek 1791! 14 VIC Tang, Jason 1739! 9 VIC Chan, Michael Others may emerge in the next 5 months since improvement is rapid among top juniors.

01-17-2009, 04:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
Virgil Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 291	2004 Originally Posted by Zeitgeist Titles in Junior Events are significant milestones in a players career. C Antolis and S Yu have just achieved permanent recognition with special wins in the Australian Junior titles for 2009. Chess Victoria should make an all-out effort to test the current crop of youngsters in the midyear Victorian junior Championships. This is another of the titles that will mark a players place in honor roles. Top players include 2153! 17 VIC Wallis, Christopher 2085!! 10 VIC Cheng, Bobby 2009! 14 VIC Dalton, Samuel 1931!! 13 VIC Schon, Eugene 1889! 13 VIC Antolis, Cedric 1826!! 11 VIC Matheson, Laurence 1811! 15 VIC Yu, Derek 1791! 14 VIC Tang, Jason 1739! 9 VIC Chan, Michael Others may emerge in the next 5 months since improvement is rapid among top juniors. ^ This list sort of provokes the question which players have already stamped their position in history with a title and in particular the U18 Title. The CV web-site is remarkably quiet on this score as far as I can see. So, a little research among bulletin boards reveals this first stanza. 2004 Victorian Junior Titles. Victorian Junior Champion Denis Bourmistrov Victorian Under-16 Champion Dusan Stojic Victorian Under-14 Champion Ruperto Lugo Victorian Girls Champion Casey Hickman Victorian Under-16 Girls Champion Elena Galiabovich Victorian Under-14 Girls Champion Vanja Rozenblat Victorian Under-12 Champion Rengan Vijayakumar Victorian Under 10 Champion Eugene Schön Victorian Under-12 Girls Champion Sally Yu Victorian Under-10 Girls Champion Shuyu Wang Winner Under-8 Laurence Matheson To the best of my knowledge all these still play in Australia except for Casey Hickman and Ruperto Lugo. Last edited by Virgil : 01-17-2009 at 07:04 PM

01-17-2009, 05:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Simon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 162	Originally Posted by Virgil ^ This list sort of provokes the question which players have already stamped their position in history with a title and in particular the U18 Title. The CV web-site is remarkably quiet on this score as far as I can see. So, a little research among bulletin boards reveals this first stanza. 2004 Victorian Junior Titles. Victorian Junior Champion Denis Bourmistrov Victorian Under-16 Champion Dusan Stojic Victorian Under-14 Champion Ruperto Lugo Victorian Girls Champion Casey Hickman Victorian Under-16 Girls Champion Elena Galiabovich Victorian Under-14 Girls Champion Vanja Rozenblat Victorian Under-12 Champion Rengan Vijayakumar Victorian Under 10 Champion Eugene Schön Victorian Under-12 Girls Champion Sally Yu Victorian Under-10 Girls Champion Shuyu Wang Winner Under-8 Laurence Matheson To the best of my knowledge all these still play in Australia except for Casey Hickman(O/S) and Ruperto Lugo. None of these players have gone on to become titled players, apart from fide master.

01-17-2009, 05:55 PM	#11 (permalink)
Virgil Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 291	Originally Posted by Simon None of these players have gone on to become titled players, apart from fide master. True But I thought the thrust of the original quote was the interest in winning State title events rather than the higher FIDE titles before they drift out of the age bracket of U18 <never to return >.

01-17-2009, 06:59 PM	#12 (permalink)
Virgil Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 291	One step back to 2003 My earlier post has piqued the interest of the poster named Il cavaliere inesistente. He advises a 2003 data-set is available. Under 18 Open Denis Bourmistrov Under 18 Girls Michelle Lee Under 16 Open Sam Chow Under 16 Girls Under 14 Open Rukman Vijayakumar Under 14 Girls Under 12 Open Rengan Vijayakumar Under 12 Girls Under 10 Open Samuel Dalton Under 10 Girls Shu-Yu Wang Under 8 Open: David Toper Under 8 Girls All of this set remain active except for Michelle Lee. Data prior to 2003 was probably collected by the Chess Kids organisation. I hope they can assist with this re-construction.

01-17-2009, 10:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
Il cavaliere inesistente Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 196	Vic Junior details It would be of benefit if all results collected for the period since the Canterbury Chess Club has organised the Vic Junior on behalf of CV were published in one table. I would do it myself if I knew how to get excel format into this post. There are some inaccurancies. Shuyu Wang is also a retired player. It is incorrect to say that results are not available on the CV web site, they just take a bit of finding. It is interesting to see how players progress when the full list is published

01-18-2009, 03:37 PM	#15 (permalink)
MOZ Volunteer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ozchess is the marginalised cyber-spot where cc-Mods choose to engage with cc-banned posters. Posts: 3,495	Originally Posted by Il cavaliere inesistente It would be of benefit if all results collected for the period since the Canterbury Chess Club has organised the Vic Junior on behalf of CV were published in one table. I would do it myself if I knew how to get excel format into this post. There are some inaccurancies. Shuyu Wang is also a retired player. It is incorrect to say that results are not available on the CV web site, they just take a bit of finding. It is interesting to see how players progress when the full list is published Hard to resist googling your nickname. The knight does not exist The Admin. here has now activated the .xls file-type upload. Thanks AO. I half-thought Shuyu Wang was on this page. ----------------- Successful upload in post #14 of this thread. Note that it appears as an attachment, not as an easily visible table. The draw-back of an attachment is that it can only be viewed by those who are formally logged in. It can't be seen by guests. __________________ FReedom though Fischer-Random chess to enjoy the whole game. Last edited by MOZ : 01-18-2009 at 03:53 PM

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