Exposing Imposters - OzChess

**Pablito15** · 07-24-2011, 07:40 PM

This shows you the lengths people will go to to try and drive a rift between the MCC and other clubs. This is also the sort of chicken-**** behaviour that makes chess forums a haven for gutless people who anonymously talk crap about each other. I'll start by saying neither I, the MCC, or Kai Tan (who we have a good relationship with) took this seriously for a microsecond.

Code:

Noble park chess Unhappy nobleparkchessnothappy@yahoo.co.uk
reply-to	Noble park chess Unhappy <nobleparkchessnothappy@yahoo.co.uk>
to	"me@gmail.com" <me@gmail.com>,
"X@optusnet.com" <X@optusnet.com>
date	Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:30 PM
subject	ozchess
signed-by	yahoo.co.uk
	Important mainly because of the words in the message.
	
hide details 5:30 PM (57 minutes ago)
	
evening gents

saw the disagraceful things written about paul at ozchess and wanted to set something straight ninja is kai tan.

paul please dont take it personal because it has nothing to do with u really , hes just foaming at the mouth about the mcc in general.

and u are definately not an idiot. no way

keep your heads up your doing a great job at the mcc and i would play myselfif i didnt live so far out.

sick of alll the slagging of mcc and also the latest disgrace with the australia day.

u should out him maybe that would teach him some manners.

he posts under his real name on cc and much less badly there.

think he should be banned from mcc but please not his son who is blameless.

please dont reveal this email there arent so many witnesses to him slagging mcc that he cant guess its me

please dont give away my identity i am only trying to help u.

What pisses me off about this childish wind-up is that I sit in committee meetings that last over 4 hours, and in every one of them time is devoted to how the MCC fits in with Chess Victoria, Box Hill and the other clubs around us. We have a history (real, practical examples) of having moved our tournaments due to clashes with the Guy West Weekender at Croydon, we moved our allegro championship to help CV- basically what I'm saying is that if anyone has any problem with the way the MCC conducts itself then they can come out and say so, using their real name. We have a serious committee of people who are professionals in various fields- none of us slag off other clubs like Box Hill officials like Publicist, and in general we all conduct ourselves in a way that helps chess in our state. So goodbye and good luck to yet another anonymous and irrelevant w***** with nothing better to do!

Also- if they read this, please be aware that your email came with your IP address genius.

Cheers,
Paul

**Elmochess** · 07-24-2011, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pablito15

This shows you the lengths people will go to to try and drive a rift between the MCC and other clubs. This is also the sort of chicken-**** behaviour that makes chess forums a haven for gutless people who anonymously talk crap about each other. I'll start by saying neither I, the MCC, or Kai Tan (who we have a good relationship with) took this seriously for a microsecond.
Code:
Noble park chess Unhappy nobleparkchessnothappy@yahoo.co.uk
reply-to	Noble park chess Unhappy <nobleparkchessnothappy@yahoo.co.uk>
to	"me@gmail.com" <me@gmail.com>,
"X@optusnet.com" <X@optusnet.com>
date	Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:30 PM
subject	ozchess
signed-by	yahoo.co.uk
	Important mainly because of the words in the message.
	
hide details 5:30 PM (57 minutes ago)
	
evening gents

saw the disagraceful things written about paul at ozchess and wanted to set something straight ninja is kai tan.

paul please dont take it personal because it has nothing to do with u really , hes just foaming at the mouth about the mcc in general.

and u are definately not an idiot. no way

keep your heads up your doing a great job at the mcc and i would play myselfif i didnt live so far out.

sick of alll the slagging of mcc and also the latest disgrace with the australia day.

u should out him maybe that would teach him some manners.

he posts under his real name on cc and much less badly there.

think he should be banned from mcc but please not his son who is blameless.

please dont reveal this email there arent so many witnesses to him slagging mcc that he cant guess its me

please dont give away my identity i am only trying to help u.
What pisses me off about this is that I sit in committee meetings that last over 4 hours, and in every one of them time is devoted to how the MCC fits in with Chess Victoria, Box Hill and the other clubs around us. We have a history (real, practical examples) of having moved our tournaments due to clashes with the Guy West Weekender at Croydon, we moved our allegro championship to help CV- basically what I'm saying is that if anyone has any problem with the way the MCC conducts itself then they can come out and say so, using their real name. We have a serious committee of people who are professionals in various fields- none of us slag off other clubs like Box Hill officials like Publicist, and in general we all conduct ourselves in a way that helps chess in our state. So goodbye and good luck to yet another anonymous and irrelevant w***** with nothing better to do!

Also- if they read this, please be aware that your email came with your IP address genius.

Cheers,
Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for this. I have not posted here for ages.

I must say it was quite a shock when Grant told me about this - but not to worry - as you say, the writer did not have the guts to even identify him / herself, nor a single shred of proper evidence, when they make accusations like this about me personally, so we are all treating it with the contempt which it deserves.

I will take this opportunity to make it very clear that NPCC is a club which has the utmost respect for all other clubs, and indeed, NPCC members are also members of BHCC, MCC etc. Both MCC and BHCC have generously helped us in all sorts of ways e.g. lending us premises for re-arranged games, helping us with the code of conduct etc. This strong relationship will continue.

I regard Grant Szuveges, Frank Cheng (ex-BHCC prez) and Peter Tsai as friends (Peter joined the chess world because of me....lucky him!). Justin owes his chess development to both clubs - hugely.

I do not intend to write any more on this matter, as it merely gives gives such people ammunition of sorts and I am sure Grant, Paul and I myself all have much too important things in our lives to deal with this sort of rubbish.

Kai

**Grant Szuveges** · 07-24-2011, 08:22 PM

What I would like to say is on behalf of the MCC:

The email published by Paul in the previous post was sent to Paul and to one other MCC member active on this forum.

The content of this email is absolute rubbish, and the MCC (especially myself) did not believe it for one second. Kai Tan is a respected person around MCC - he has played in our events, his son plays in our events and he (Kai) has donated money to our building fund. I know Kai well and get along with him extremely well. There is no way in the world that Kai Tan is Ninja!

I believe that whoever sent this email is simply trying to drive a rift between MCC and Noble Park CC for whatever reason. They obviously have some sort of agenda though. The MCC and Noble Park CC have an extremely good relationship and share many members. This has not and will not cause any hint of problems to this solid relationship.

If people send these sorts of emails revealing their real identity, MCC may take them seriously (depending on their content - in this case we wouldnt as we know Kai well). However when these sorts of emails are sent anonymously, we do not take them seriously at all and do not consider them to have any legitimacy whatsoever.

What is most disappointing about this though, is that Kai Tan's good name has been dragged into somebodys issue with the MCC. To the person responsible for this email:

If you have a problem with MCC and want to cause trouble and start fights with our club, go ahead - we are used to it. People have been doing it for years, long before I was president, and they will continue to do it for years after Im gone.

But

Dont drag the name of a hard working individual from another club through the mud to suit your own political purposes. Kai Tan has done NOTHING to deserve being implicated in this. He does a lot for chess and his son is a leading player and an active player at numerous clubs. These are the sort of things which prompt intelligent, hard working people like Kai to leave chess administration. In a nutshell, leave him alone and leave his name out of this.

Paul has titled this thread "What a joke" - however the biggest joke in all of this is the final line of the email which says: "Please do not give away my identity i am only trying to help u". Well, all I can say to that is:

You did not even supply your identity anyway

Instead the person has created an email address which also brings Noble Park Chess Club's name into this - dragging their name through the mud also.

This attempt at driving a rift between clubs has not worked and MCC and Kai Tan are united in our feelings toward this. This is the last I will be saying about the matter.

Grant Szuveges, Melbourne Chess Club President

**mowcop** · 07-24-2011, 11:03 PM

Frankly, unbelievable, and the main reason that I post less frequently on forums nowadays.

I think I might post even less from now on....

**Firegoat7** · 07-25-2011, 01:35 AM

Greetings,

I would like to thank Kai Tan and MCC (Paul and Grant) for taking such a public and open stance on this matter. If anything, it demonstrates that open democratic accountability, combined with good communicative relationships, provides a strong foundation for building chess culture. I see it as a positive that they acted so quickly,and openly, to publicly air and refute this email.

In regards to comments expressed about Internet forums. I must admit, sadly, that people express very reasonable points when they suggest that these issues arise from forums. After all, who would really want their personal name dragged through all this? I most certainly have empathy for this viewpoint.

On the other hand, I would like to point out that honest accountability is a very strong democratic weapon for refuting some of these more bizarre claims. If unaccountable individuals are going to waste so much time creating this sort of nonsense. Then at least now, we have the technology to trace their footprints and make them accountable. In this way, virtual communication,via forums, really does make a significant difference to improving participatory cultural activity. Sure some clowns are going to write nonsense and thing they are being clever. To counter this, intelligent honest people will out them, expose the truth, and publicly shame these people. This may not have always been possible before the internet.

cheers,

**Just2Good** · 07-25-2011, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by mowcop

Frankly, unbelievable, and the main reason that I post less frequently on forums nowadays.

I think I might post even less from now on....

Actually, this nonsense was exposed on our forum. We have done our own investigation and there is no evidence to suggest this clown is a member of our forum.

In fact, not having chess forums like OzChess would probably have made this issue more difficult to diffuse, and made it more difficult to expose the email as a fraud.

**Pablito15** · 07-25-2011, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Greetings,

I would like to thank Kai Tan and MCC (Paul and Grant) for taking such a public and open stance on this matter. If anything, it demonstrates that open democratic accountability, combined with good communicative relationships, provides a strong foundation for building chess culture. I see it as a positive that they acted so quickly,and openly, to publicly air and refute this email.

In regards to comments expressed about Internet forums. I must admit, sadly, that people express very reasonable points when they suggest that these issues arise from forums. After all, who would really want their personal name dragged through all this? I most certainly have empathy for this viewpoint.

On the other hand, I would like to point out that honest accountability is a very strong democratic weapon for refuting some of these more bizarre claims. If unaccountable individuals are going to waste so much time creating this sort of nonsense. Then at least now, we have the technology to trace their footprints and make them accountable. In this way, virtual communication,via forums, really does make a significant difference to improving participatory cultural activity. Sure some clowns are going to write nonsense and thing they are being clever. To counter this, intelligent honest people will out them, expose the truth, and publicly shame these people. This may not have always been possible before the internet.

cheers,

Forums are a funny place. There needs to be less dogmatism in my opinion. Seems to me people either have an opinion of total freedom or strict rules. I think things need to be decided on a more case by case basis. Moderators should be able to distinguish between a freedom of speech worth protecting, IE criticising ACF, VCF, Clubs, Club Officials etc, and a freedom of speech not worth protecting like random abuse of chess-players/chess-parents and ban people quite severly accordingly.

I came to chess after being involved a lot of other sports and the atmosphere and behaviour people take as acceptable in chess circles seemed and still seems to me totally bizarre. It's not atrractive for chess, it's not attractive for this forum.

**Just2Good** · 07-25-2011, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Pablito15

I came to chess after being involved a lot of other sports and the atmosphere and behaviour people take as acceptable in chess circles seemed and still seems to me totally bizarre. It's not atrractive for chess, it's not attractive for this forum.

Chess players, for some reason, seem to be wired differently. Keep in mind chess is an individualistic game. No team concept, therefore, no comradery between players like in other sports.

**Just2Good** · 07-26-2011, 06:13 AM

I changed the thread title to better focus it, but if the OP wants the old title returned, I am happy to do that.

In any event it seems we are being criticized in the other place for our investigation to find out who sent a bogus email claiming to be Kai, a Victorian chess player.

None of the ip addresses used matched any accounts on OzChess. Further analysis showed the ip addresses in the email to be based in the United Kingdom. If a proxy was used, and that is a possibility, we have not been able to confirm that.

While it is disappointing someone would try to build a wedge between Victorian clubs by impersonating someone else and sending false emails, I don't see what else can be done here. The motive itself in doing something like this seems baffling.

Now if they have information on the dark side of the moon about this, then I'm all ears. Otherwise its just criticism to "do something" without articulating what that "something" is.

**JaK** · 07-26-2011, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by J2G

I changed the thread title to better focus it, but if the OP wants the old title returned, I am happy to do that.

I think that Pablito who brought this matter into the light of day would agree with the new heading!

Originally Posted by J2G

In any event it seems we are being criticized in the other place for our investigation to find out who sent a bogus email claiming to be Kai, a Victorian chess player.

Let whoever wishes so to criticise all they like! Kai Tan is not just a player (although he kicked my butt in our more recent encounter) he is also a popular Chess personality - president of the Noble Park Chess Club and father of one of our strongest Australian Juniors, Justin Tan!

Originally Posted by J2G

Now if they have information on the dark side of the moon about this, then I'm all ears. Otherwise its just criticism to "do something" without articulating what that "something" is.

I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. I know that this time it all started with a personal e-mail, something you can't really stop (you can if you push the matter to legal action) but whatever the democratic free speech parameters of the forum are, airing anonymous slandering is simply not on!

**Grant Szuveges** · 07-26-2011, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by JaK

I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. I know that this time it all started with a personal e-mail, something you can't really stop (you can if you push the matter to legal action) but whatever the democratic free speech parameters of the forum are, airing anonymous slandering is simply not on!

The whole problem with the idea of free speech on the chess forums is that there are two types of free speech: accountable free speech and unaccountable free speech. (Those of you thinking "Here he goes again" need read no further). With accountable free speech the speaker provides their name - whereby they are accountable for what they say - whether it be slanderous or not. But with unaccountable free speech, anyone can simply get on either forum and say whatever they want with absolutely no significant consequences (being banned from a forum is not a serious consequence). And the person they are slandering has no fair right of reply.

I think that people sometimes forget the difference between countries and chess forums. Free speech is an important part of running a democratic society - most people would agree I think. Whereas a chess forum is a much smaller society where most people know eachother - at least online if not in real life. In this case, within a smaller community of people, slander actually means more and is more damaging, because more people know the victim. For instance, if someone went and accused me of something in the Herald Sun letters page, less than 1% of people in Melbourne would know about it - they either wouldnt know me or wouldnt read that paper. Whereas if someone writes something about me on either chess forum, most people I know through chess will read it. This is a much higher proportion of people exposed to slander and untruths. At least when someone with a real name or identity says something to you, you can confront them, sort the issue out and move on. When an anonymous entity does this it can cause serious psychological damage to a person. How will we all (readers of both forums) feel if a chess identity suicides after suffering depression based on anonymous slander about them on chess forums??? Think about this seriously next time you want to defend unaccountable free speech. Unfortunately this is what it may take for chess forum users to actually take this issue seriously.

**antichrist** · 07-26-2011, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by JaK

I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people.

Exactly, Trailier Park Lover, Sotto Voice and Juicy has been maliciously attacking me for no reason whatsoever, only jealousy. He called me a turd over the place and got away with it. Where are the standards may I ask?

**JaK** · 07-26-2011, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges

... Think about this seriously next time you [my emphasis] want to defend unaccountable free speech. Unfortunately this is what it may take for chess forum users to actually take this issue seriously.

Who are you referring to here?
Read again what I wrote!

[quote=JaK]I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. I know that this time it all started with a personal e-mail, something you can't really stop (you can if you push the matter to legal action) but whatever the democratic free speech parameters of the forum are, airing anonymous slandering is simply not on![/QUOTE]

And to expect a low life slug of the anonymous kind to use his/her own real name to slander people the way the e-mail author did is a bit too optimistic!

Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges

For instance, if someone went and accused me of something in the Herald Sun letters page, less than 1% of people in Melbourne would know about it - they either wouldnt know me or wouldnt read that paper.

Herald Sun's editors wouldn't allow defamatory slandering stuff being published even in the letters' page. Defo laws are strict you know!

**Firegoat7** · 07-26-2011, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by JaK

I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. I know that this time it all started with a personal e-mail, something you can't really stop (you can if you push the matter to legal action) but whatever the democratic free speech parameters of the forum are, airing anonymous slandering is simply not on!

I tend to disagree with some of the sentiment of this post. I think that really the decision ought to be made by the person who gets slandered. If anonymous people are conducting dishonest attacks against a persons character, then they deserve to be exposed for the charlatans they are. If the the person being slandered is fine with the airing of the false allegation then that is fine by me. In that case I support publishing.

However, if the person who is being "slandered" really does not wish the post to or email to be expressed publicly in an open format then I guess its fair enough to censor the post. In this case, I don't support publishing.

I am hoping that the source of this bogus email gets tracked down. I would start with the poster Ninja!, they seem like the most likely culprit.

cheers,

**Grant Szuveges** · 07-26-2011, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by JaK

Who are you referring to here?
Read again what I wrote!

Oh! I didnt mean you JAK! I forgot that I was responding to your comments when I had got that far into my post! I meant a generic "you" meaning anyone reading the post! Sorry if it sounded otherwise!

07-24-2011, 07:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Pablito15 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 668	Exposing Imposters This shows you the lengths people will go to to try and drive a rift between the MCC and other clubs. This is also the sort of chicken-** behaviour that makes chess forums a haven for gutless people who anonymously talk crap about each other. I'll start by saying neither I, the MCC, or Kai Tan (who we have a good relationship with) took this seriously for a microsecond. Code: Noble park chess Unhappy nobleparkchessnothappy@yahoo.co.uk reply-to Noble park chess Unhappy <nobleparkchessnothappy@yahoo.co.uk> to "me@gmail.com" <me@gmail.com>, "X@optusnet.com" <X@optusnet.com> date Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:30 PM subject ozchess signed-by yahoo.co.uk Important mainly because of the words in the message. hide details 5:30 PM (57 minutes ago) evening gents saw the disagraceful things written about paul at ozchess and wanted to set something straight ninja is kai tan. paul please dont take it personal because it has nothing to do with u really , hes just foaming at the mouth about the mcc in general. and u are definately not an idiot. no way keep your heads up your doing a great job at the mcc and i would play myselfif i didnt live so far out. sick of alll the slagging of mcc and also the latest disgrace with the australia day. u should out him maybe that would teach him some manners. he posts under his real name on cc and much less badly there. think he should be banned from mcc but please not his son who is blameless. please dont reveal this email there arent so many witnesses to him slagging mcc that he cant guess its me please dont give away my identity i am only trying to help u. What pisses me off about this childish wind-up is that I sit in committee meetings that last over 4 hours, and in every one of them time is devoted to how the MCC fits in with Chess Victoria, Box Hill and the other clubs around us. We have a history (real, practical examples) of having moved our tournaments due to clashes with the Guy West Weekender at Croydon, we moved our allegro championship to help CV- basically what I'm saying is that if anyone has any problem with the way the MCC conducts itself then they can come out and say so, using their real name. We have a serious committee of people who are professionals in various fields- none of us slag off other clubs like Box Hill officials like Publicist, and in general we all conduct ourselves in a way that helps chess in our state. So goodbye and good luck to yet another anonymous and irrelevant w*** with nothing better to do! Also- if they read this, please be aware that your email came with your IP address genius. Cheers, Paul __________________ My Blog! Last edited by Pablito15 : 07-25-2011 at 01:35 AM

07-24-2011, 08:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
Elmochess Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 15	Originally Posted by Pablito15 This shows you the lengths people will go to to try and drive a rift between the MCC and other clubs. This is also the sort of chicken-** behaviour that makes chess forums a haven for gutless people who anonymously talk crap about each other. I'll start by saying neither I, the MCC, or Kai Tan (who we have a good relationship with) took this seriously for a microsecond. Code: Noble park chess Unhappy nobleparkchessnothappy@yahoo.co.uk reply-to Noble park chess Unhappy <nobleparkchessnothappy@yahoo.co.uk> to "me@gmail.com" <me@gmail.com>, "X@optusnet.com" <X@optusnet.com> date Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:30 PM subject ozchess signed-by yahoo.co.uk Important mainly because of the words in the message. hide details 5:30 PM (57 minutes ago) evening gents saw the disagraceful things written about paul at ozchess and wanted to set something straight ninja is kai tan. paul please dont take it personal because it has nothing to do with u really , hes just foaming at the mouth about the mcc in general. and u are definately not an idiot. no way keep your heads up your doing a great job at the mcc and i would play myselfif i didnt live so far out. sick of alll the slagging of mcc and also the latest disgrace with the australia day. u should out him maybe that would teach him some manners. he posts under his real name on cc and much less badly there. think he should be banned from mcc but please not his son who is blameless. please dont reveal this email there arent so many witnesses to him slagging mcc that he cant guess its me please dont give away my identity i am only trying to help u. What pisses me off about this is that I sit in committee meetings that last over 4 hours, and in every one of them time is devoted to how the MCC fits in with Chess Victoria, Box Hill and the other clubs around us. We have a history (real, practical examples) of having moved our tournaments due to clashes with the Guy West Weekender at Croydon, we moved our allegro championship to help CV- basically what I'm saying is that if anyone has any problem with the way the MCC conducts itself then they can come out and say so, using their real name. We have a serious committee of people who are professionals in various fields- none of us slag off other clubs like Box Hill officials like Publicist, and in general we all conduct ourselves in a way that helps chess in our state. So goodbye and good luck to yet another anonymous and irrelevant w*** with nothing better to do! Also- if they read this, please be aware that your email came with your IP address genius. Cheers, Paul Hi Paul, Thanks for this. I have not posted here for ages. I must say it was quite a shock when Grant told me about this - but not to worry - as you say, the writer did not have the guts to even identify him / herself, nor a single shred of proper evidence, when they make accusations like this about me personally, so we are all treating it with the contempt which it deserves. I will take this opportunity to make it very clear that NPCC is a club which has the utmost respect for all other clubs, and indeed, NPCC members are also members of BHCC, MCC etc. Both MCC and BHCC have generously helped us in all sorts of ways e.g. lending us premises for re-arranged games, helping us with the code of conduct etc. This strong relationship will continue. I regard Grant Szuveges, Frank Cheng (ex-BHCC prez) and Peter Tsai as friends (Peter joined the chess world because of me....lucky him!). Justin owes his chess development to both clubs - hugely. I do not intend to write any more on this matter, as it merely gives gives such people ammunition of sorts and I am sure Grant, Paul and I myself all have much too important things in our lives to deal with this sort of rubbish. Kai Last edited by Pablito15 : 07-25-2011 at 01:35 AM Reason: emails

07-24-2011, 08:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
Grant Szuveges Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,003	An official response What I would like to say is on behalf of the MCC: The email published by Paul in the previous post was sent to Paul and to one other MCC member active on this forum. The content of this email is absolute rubbish, and the MCC (especially myself) did not believe it for one second. Kai Tan is a respected person around MCC - he has played in our events, his son plays in our events and he (Kai) has donated money to our building fund. I know Kai well and get along with him extremely well. There is no way in the world that Kai Tan is Ninja! I believe that whoever sent this email is simply trying to drive a rift between MCC and Noble Park CC for whatever reason. They obviously have some sort of agenda though. The MCC and Noble Park CC have an extremely good relationship and share many members. This has not and will not cause any hint of problems to this solid relationship. If people send these sorts of emails revealing their real identity, MCC may take them seriously (depending on their content - in this case we wouldnt as we know Kai well). However when these sorts of emails are sent anonymously, we do not take them seriously at all and do not consider them to have any legitimacy whatsoever. What is most disappointing about this though, is that Kai Tan's good name has been dragged into somebodys issue with the MCC. To the person responsible for this email: If you have a problem with MCC and want to cause trouble and start fights with our club, go ahead - we are used to it. People have been doing it for years, long before I was president, and they will continue to do it for years after Im gone. But Dont drag the name of a hard working individual from another club through the mud to suit your own political purposes. Kai Tan has done NOTHING to deserve being implicated in this. He does a lot for chess and his son is a leading player and an active player at numerous clubs. These are the sort of things which prompt intelligent, hard working people like Kai to leave chess administration. In a nutshell, leave him alone and leave his name out of this. Paul has titled this thread "What a joke" - however the biggest joke in all of this is the final line of the email which says: "Please do not give away my identity i am only trying to help u". Well, all I can say to that is: You did not even supply your identity anyway Instead the person has created an email address which also brings Noble Park Chess Club's name into this - dragging their name through the mud also. This attempt at driving a rift between clubs has not worked and MCC and Kai Tan are united in our feelings toward this. This is the last I will be saying about the matter. Grant Szuveges, Melbourne Chess Club President __________________ People who have nothing to hide post using their real names...

07-24-2011, 11:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
mowcop fireeater Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 825	Frankly, unbelievable, and the main reason that I post less frequently on forums nowadays. I think I might post even less from now on.... __________________ Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand I'm trying out a new blog site..... http://gorkachc.blogspot.com/

07-25-2011, 01:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Greetings, I would like to thank Kai Tan and MCC (Paul and Grant) for taking such a public and open stance on this matter. If anything, it demonstrates that open democratic accountability, combined with good communicative relationships, provides a strong foundation for building chess culture. I see it as a positive that they acted so quickly,and openly, to publicly air and refute this email. In regards to comments expressed about Internet forums. I must admit, sadly, that people express very reasonable points when they suggest that these issues arise from forums. After all, who would really want their personal name dragged through all this? I most certainly have empathy for this viewpoint. On the other hand, I would like to point out that honest accountability is a very strong democratic weapon for refuting some of these more bizarre claims. If unaccountable individuals are going to waste so much time creating this sort of nonsense. Then at least now, we have the technology to trace their footprints and make them accountable. In this way, virtual communication,via forums, really does make a significant difference to improving participatory cultural activity. Sure some clowns are going to write nonsense and thing they are being clever. To counter this, intelligent honest people will out them, expose the truth, and publicly shame these people. This may not have always been possible before the internet. cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

07-25-2011, 05:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by mowcop Frankly, unbelievable, and the main reason that I post less frequently on forums nowadays. I think I might post even less from now on.... Actually, this nonsense was exposed on our forum. We have done our own investigation and there is no evidence to suggest this clown is a member of our forum. In fact, not having chess forums like OzChess would probably have made this issue more difficult to diffuse, and made it more difficult to expose the email as a fraud. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

07-25-2011, 05:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
Pablito15 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 668	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Greetings, I would like to thank Kai Tan and MCC (Paul and Grant) for taking such a public and open stance on this matter. If anything, it demonstrates that open democratic accountability, combined with good communicative relationships, provides a strong foundation for building chess culture. I see it as a positive that they acted so quickly,and openly, to publicly air and refute this email. In regards to comments expressed about Internet forums. I must admit, sadly, that people express very reasonable points when they suggest that these issues arise from forums. After all, who would really want their personal name dragged through all this? I most certainly have empathy for this viewpoint. On the other hand, I would like to point out that honest accountability is a very strong democratic weapon for refuting some of these more bizarre claims. If unaccountable individuals are going to waste so much time creating this sort of nonsense. Then at least now, we have the technology to trace their footprints and make them accountable. In this way, virtual communication,via forums, really does make a significant difference to improving participatory cultural activity. Sure some clowns are going to write nonsense and thing they are being clever. To counter this, intelligent honest people will out them, expose the truth, and publicly shame these people. This may not have always been possible before the internet. cheers, Forums are a funny place. There needs to be less dogmatism in my opinion. Seems to me people either have an opinion of total freedom or strict rules. I think things need to be decided on a more case by case basis. Moderators should be able to distinguish between a freedom of speech worth protecting, IE criticising ACF, VCF, Clubs, Club Officials etc, and a freedom of speech not worth protecting like random abuse of chess-players/chess-parents and ban people quite severly accordingly. I came to chess after being involved a lot of other sports and the atmosphere and behaviour people take as acceptable in chess circles seemed and still seems to me totally bizarre. It's not atrractive for chess, it's not attractive for this forum. __________________ My Blog!

07-25-2011, 06:22 PM	#8 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Pablito15 I came to chess after being involved a lot of other sports and the atmosphere and behaviour people take as acceptable in chess circles seemed and still seems to me totally bizarre. It's not atrractive for chess, it's not attractive for this forum. Chess players, for some reason, seem to be wired differently. Keep in mind chess is an individualistic game. No team concept, therefore, no comradery between players like in other sports. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

07-26-2011, 06:13 AM	#9 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	I changed the thread title to better focus it, but if the OP wants the old title returned, I am happy to do that. In any event it seems we are being criticized in the other place for our investigation to find out who sent a bogus email claiming to be Kai, a Victorian chess player. None of the ip addresses used matched any accounts on OzChess. Further analysis showed the ip addresses in the email to be based in the United Kingdom. If a proxy was used, and that is a possibility, we have not been able to confirm that. While it is disappointing someone would try to build a wedge between Victorian clubs by impersonating someone else and sending false emails, I don't see what else can be done here. The motive itself in doing something like this seems baffling. Now if they have information on the dark side of the moon about this, then I'm all ears. Otherwise its just criticism to "do something" without articulating what that "something" is. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

07-26-2011, 01:52 PM	#10 (permalink)
JaK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 391	Originally Posted by J2G I changed the thread title to better focus it, but if the OP wants the old title returned, I am happy to do that. I think that Pablito who brought this matter into the light of day would agree with the new heading! Originally Posted by J2G In any event it seems we are being criticized in the other place for our investigation to find out who sent a bogus email claiming to be Kai, a Victorian chess player. Let whoever wishes so to criticise all they like! Kai Tan is not just a player (although he kicked my butt in our more recent encounter) he is also a popular Chess personality - president of the Noble Park Chess Club and father of one of our strongest Australian Juniors, Justin Tan! Originally Posted by J2G Now if they have information on the dark side of the moon about this, then I'm all ears. Otherwise its just criticism to "do something" without articulating what that "something" is. I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. I know that this time it all started with a personal e-mail, something you can't really stop (you can if you push the matter to legal action) but whatever the democratic free speech parameters of the forum are, airing anonymous slandering is simply not on!

07-26-2011, 04:03 PM	#11 (permalink)
Grant Szuveges Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,003	Originally Posted by JaK I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. I know that this time it all started with a personal e-mail, something you can't really stop (you can if you push the matter to legal action) but whatever the democratic free speech parameters of the forum are, airing anonymous slandering is simply not on! The whole problem with the idea of free speech on the chess forums is that there are two types of free speech: accountable free speech and unaccountable free speech. (Those of you thinking "Here he goes again" need read no further). With accountable free speech the speaker provides their name - whereby they are accountable for what they say - whether it be slanderous or not. But with unaccountable free speech, anyone can simply get on either forum and say whatever they want with absolutely no significant consequences (being banned from a forum is not a serious consequence). And the person they are slandering has no fair right of reply. I think that people sometimes forget the difference between countries and chess forums. Free speech is an important part of running a democratic society - most people would agree I think. Whereas a chess forum is a much smaller society where most people know eachother - at least online if not in real life. In this case, within a smaller community of people, slander actually means more and is more damaging, because more people know the victim. For instance, if someone went and accused me of something in the Herald Sun letters page, less than 1% of people in Melbourne would know about it - they either wouldnt know me or wouldnt read that paper. Whereas if someone writes something about me on either chess forum, most people I know through chess will read it. This is a much higher proportion of people exposed to slander and untruths. At least when someone with a real name or identity says something to you, you can confront them, sort the issue out and move on. When an anonymous entity does this it can cause serious psychological damage to a person. How will we all (readers of both forums) feel if a chess identity suicides after suffering depression based on anonymous slander about them on chess forums??? Think about this seriously next time you want to defend unaccountable free speech. Unfortunately this is what it may take for chess forum users to actually take this issue seriously. __________________ People who have nothing to hide post using their real names...

07-26-2011, 06:41 PM	#12 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Originally Posted by JaK I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. Exactly, Trailier Park Lover, Sotto Voice and Juicy has been maliciously attacking me for no reason whatsoever, only jealousy. He called me a turd over the place and got away with it. Where are the standards may I ask? Last edited by Just2Good : 07-26-2011 at 06:42 PM Reason: Fixed Quote Tags

07-26-2011, 07:39 PM	#13 (permalink)
JaK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 391	Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges ... Think about this seriously next time you [my emphasis] want to defend unaccountable free speech. Unfortunately this is what it may take for chess forum users to actually take this issue seriously. Who are you referring to here? Read again what I wrote! [quote=JaK]I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. I know that this time it all started with a personal e-mail, something you can't really stop (you can if you push the matter to legal action) but whatever the democratic free speech parameters of the forum are, airing anonymous slandering is simply not on![/QUOTE] And to expect a low life slug of the anonymous kind to use his/her own real name to slander people the way the e-mail author did is a bit too optimistic! Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges For instance, if someone went and accused me of something in the Herald Sun letters page, less than 1% of people in Melbourne would know about it - they either wouldnt know me or wouldnt read that paper. Herald Sun's editors wouldn't allow defamatory slandering stuff being published even in the letters' page. Defo laws are strict you know!

07-26-2011, 08:38 PM	#14 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by JaK I think that a good start for both forums would be to disallow anonymous, slimy, slandering, lowlifers using the boards to conduct personal attacks against people. I know that this time it all started with a personal e-mail, something you can't really stop (you can if you push the matter to legal action) but whatever the democratic free speech parameters of the forum are, airing anonymous slandering is simply not on! I tend to disagree with some of the sentiment of this post. I think that really the decision ought to be made by the person who gets slandered. If anonymous people are conducting dishonest attacks against a persons character, then they deserve to be exposed for the charlatans they are. If the the person being slandered is fine with the airing of the false allegation then that is fine by me. In that case I support publishing. However, if the person who is being "slandered" really does not wish the post to or email to be expressed publicly in an open format then I guess its fair enough to censor the post. In this case, I don't support publishing. I am hoping that the source of this bogus email gets tracked down. I would start with the poster Ninja!, they seem like the most likely culprit. cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

07-26-2011, 08:45 PM	#15 (permalink)
Grant Szuveges Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,003	Originally Posted by JaK Who are you referring to here? Read again what I wrote! Oh! I didnt mean you JAK! I forgot that I was responding to your comments when I had got that far into my post! I meant a generic "you" meaning anyone reading the post! Sorry if it sounded otherwise! __________________ People who have nothing to hide post using their real names...

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread: