Tournament Withdrawers - OzChess

**Iconoclast** · 10-30-2007, 05:30 PM

On his excelant blog Chessexpress, Shaun Press has stated here" [i] am interested in a discussion on the topic ..." Blogs are not suited for discussions however, boards are. So here we are.

Withdrawal without a very good reason is a disrespectful action that leaves a sour taste. It brings the game into disrepute, and adversely effects the fairness of tie break calculations. Therefore I am in favor of heavy disincentives against withdrawing. As for the harm minimisation route, the harm is to the sport. It suffers a down grading of its stature when players treat it like a camping holiday - if rains, so, go home.

Penalty? $1000 bond for ten tournaments sounds good.

What, you may ask, is a "very good" reason. The answer requires community negotiation. May I suggest two Example Lists: "very good" and "not good enough."

Very Good:
You are dead.
You are in hospital.
You are in gaol.
Your close family or friend is dead or hospitalised.
Birth of your child.
Your house has burned down.
You lost your job.
The receivers have invaded.
Your wife has packed her bags.

Not Good Enough:
You have food poisoning.
You have a bad cold or the 'flu.
Your girlfiend has dumped you.
The airconditioning is too hot/cold.
You are on a losing streak.
You cannot find a baby sitter.
Your boss wants you to come in.
You have run out of lunch money and lost your weekly train ticket.

**WhiteElephant** · 10-30-2007, 07:30 PM

I believe that the following ARE perfectly fine reasons for withdrawing for tournaments where a number of games are played in a short space of time, such as weekenders:

You have food poisoning.
You have a bad cold or the 'flu.
You cannot find a baby sitter.
Your boss wants you to come in.

etc etc

The reality is that nearly all tournament players in Australia are playing chess as a HOBBY. They are doing it for fun, because they enjoy it. They are not PROFESSIONAL players. People have lives outside chess, they have families, work commitments, a social life, etc. Anal tournament organisers need to GET REAL and understand that sometimes things come up which are unavoidable and force a player out of a tournament. Fancy suggesting that someone suffering from food poisoning and is throwing up needs to come and play their chess game! What a joke.

A similar joke is the penalty of banning a player from further tournaments for a withdrawal. Are tournament organisers trying to encourage or discourage players? Our sport is suffering from poor particpation as it is and tournament organisers are having a hissy fit because someone withdraws when they are ill.

A different case is serial withdrawers. I support some sort of penalty for those guys....perhaps we need to establish criteria for what constitutes a serial withdrawer - 3 times in a 2 year period? Not sure, happy to discuss that one. But giving a player the 3rd degree when they withdraw ONCE (as I believe happened to Igor Goldenberg recently) is disrespectful and arrogant. The player should be given the benefit of the doubt - if they want to withdraw then obviously they have their reasons.

**Just2Good** · 10-30-2007, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Withdrawal without a very good reason is a disrespectful action that leaves a sour taste.

I had a very good reason! Maybe in NSW they don't have Blue Bottles, but I can assure you it bloody well hurt and I was light headed for most of Sunday! Also, I was still in the money after day one, so withdrawing wasn't an easy decision to make but I felt it was in my best interests overall. My health and well being comes first, sorry.

Regards,

AO

10-30-2007, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I had a very good reason! Maybe in NSW they don't have Blue Bottles, but I can assure you it bloody well hurt and I was light headed for most of Sunday! Also, I was still in the money after day one, so withdrawing wasn't an easy decision to make but I felt it was in my best interests overall. My health and well being comes first, sorry.

Regards,

AO

Yeah I had a feeling Shaun's comments were motivated by your recent withdrawal....exactly right, look after your health first!

{You could delete it very easily, if you were to desire to do so George, by simply hitting the "edit" button as an "unregistered poster". Yours sincerely, LBC. (coming soon to the OzChess forums!)}

**WhiteElephant** · 10-30-2007, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Yeah I had a feeling Shaun's comments were motivated by your recent withdrawal....exactly right, look after your health first!

Ummm the above post was from me...for some reason it came through as unregistered and I don't know how to delete it.

**Iconoclast** · 10-30-2007, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

The reality is that nearly all tournament players in Australia are playing chess as a HOBBY. They are doing it for fun, because they enjoy it. They are not PROFESSIONAL players. People have lives outside chess, they have families, work commitments, a social life, etc.

Yes yes. I agree entirely. However, when it comes to your HOBBY, it TOO has its associated commitments, responsabilities and social customs. What we are discussing here, is how much weight we give to competing priorities. The way I see it, if you are too pissweak to play your game between a a couple of chucks, you are putting some minor discomfort ahead of your social responsabilities. And an adult who is so incompetant that they cannot find a baby sitter, has no business making babies it the first place and should be sterilised.

Where the chess community draws its line on withdrawals is STILL open to debate. My opinion is not objectively correct, it is my subjective opinion.

10-30-2007, 10:08 PM

Hi Matt! LBC Here... I will be posting on here soon! We can argue then!

**Slav** · 10-31-2007, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I had a very good reason! Maybe in NSW they don't have Blue Bottles, but I can assure you it bloody well hurt and I was light headed for most of Sunday! Also, I was still in the money after day one, so withdrawing wasn't an easy decision to make but I felt it was in my best interests overall. My health and well being comes first, sorry.

Regards,

AO

All due respect but it is not just about you but also about the opponents you left sitting at the board without a game. What about them?

10-31-2007, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Slav

All due respect but it is not just about you but also about the opponents you left sitting at the board without a game. What about them?

If AO let the arbiter know that he was withdrawing and his reasons then I don't see the problem. The opponent could be re-paired or given the bye.

If, however, the arbiter was not notified then that is not so cool.

**WhiteElephant** · 10-31-2007, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Slav

All due respect but it is not just about you but also about the opponents you left sitting at the board without a game. What about them?

If AO let the arbiter know that he was withdrawing (before the game had started) then I don't see the problem. The opponent could be re-paired or given the bye.

**Slav** · 10-31-2007, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

If AO let the arbiter know that he was withdrawing (before the game had started) then I don't see the problem. The opponent could be re-paired or given the bye.

But that isn't what happened is it?? What happened is that two people over 2 rounds sat at the board and were cheated out of a game.

What about them?? I'd say Arrogant-One owes them $10 each, 2.5 hours of their time back, and an apology just for a start.

**WhiteElephant** · 11-01-2007, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Slav

But that isn't what happened is it?? What happened is that two people over 2 rounds sat at the board and were cheated out of a game.

What about them?? I'd say Arrogant-One owes them $10 each, 2.5 hours of their time back, and an apology just for a start.

Is that what happened? Didn't AO let the arbiter know? Who are you? Were you there?

**Iconoclast** · 11-01-2007, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

The opponent could be re-paired or given the bye.

Byes:mad:

Everyone - players and officials - should die to prevent them. Byes are a pox on the game.

**WhiteElephant** · 11-01-2007, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Byes:mad:

Everyone - players and officials - should die to prevent them. Byes are a pox on the game.

I personally don't mind them but I can understand why people are annoyed by them.

If you look at it another way, a withdrawal could actually eliminate a bye

**Slav** · 11-01-2007, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

Is that what happened? Didn't AO let the arbiter know? Who are you? Were you there?

http://kingsofchess.biz/2007SPU1600.htm

Kyle Ringrose and David Soul were cheated out of a game. It has further reaching consequences as well, since these players got a free point each in the last 2 rounds!! I'm not sure if this affected prizes, but I'd say it may have.

10-30-2007, 05:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Tournament Withdrawers On his excelant blog Chessexpress, Shaun Press has stated here" [i] am interested in a discussion on the topic ..." Blogs are not suited for discussions however, boards are. So here we are. Withdrawal without a very good reason is a disrespectful action that leaves a sour taste. It brings the game into disrepute, and adversely effects the fairness of tie break calculations. Therefore I am in favor of heavy disincentives against withdrawing. As for the harm minimisation route, the harm is to the sport. It suffers a down grading of its stature when players treat it like a camping holiday - if rains, so, go home. Penalty? $1000 bond for ten tournaments sounds good. What, you may ask, is a "very good" reason. The answer requires community negotiation. May I suggest two Example Lists: "very good" and "not good enough." Very Good: You are dead. You are in hospital. You are in gaol. Your close family or friend is dead or hospitalised. Birth of your child. Your house has burned down. You lost your job. The receivers have invaded. Your wife has packed her bags. Not Good Enough: You have food poisoning. You have a bad cold or the 'flu. Your girlfiend has dumped you. The airconditioning is too hot/cold. You are on a losing streak. You cannot find a baby sitter. Your boss wants you to come in. You have run out of lunch money and lost your weekly train ticket. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

10-30-2007, 07:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Surfers Paradise Open Originally Posted by Iconoclast Withdrawal without a very good reason is a disrespectful action that leaves a sour taste. I had a very good reason! Maybe in NSW they don't have Blue Bottles, but I can assure you it bloody well hurt and I was light headed for most of Sunday! Also, I was still in the money after day one, so withdrawing wasn't an easy decision to make but I felt it was in my best interests overall. My health and well being comes first, sorry. Regards, AO __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

10-30-2007, 07:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
Unregistered Posts: n/a	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I had a very good reason! Maybe in NSW they don't have Blue Bottles, but I can assure you it bloody well hurt and I was light headed for most of Sunday! Also, I was still in the money after day one, so withdrawing wasn't an easy decision to make but I felt it was in my best interests overall. My health and well being comes first, sorry. Regards, AO Yeah I had a feeling Shaun's comments were motivated by your recent withdrawal....exactly right, look after your health first! {You could delete it very easily, if you were to desire to do so George, by simply hitting the "edit" button as an "unregistered poster". Yours sincerely, LBC. (coming soon to the OzChess forums!)}

10-30-2007, 07:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	Originally Posted by Unregistered Yeah I had a feeling Shaun's comments were motivated by your recent withdrawal....exactly right, look after your health first! Ummm the above post was from me...for some reason it came through as unregistered and I don't know how to delete it.

10-30-2007, 09:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by WhiteElephant The reality is that nearly all tournament players in Australia are playing chess as a HOBBY. They are doing it for fun, because they enjoy it. They are not PROFESSIONAL players. People have lives outside chess, they have families, work commitments, a social life, etc. Yes yes. I agree entirely. However, when it comes to your HOBBY, it TOO has its associated commitments, responsabilities and social customs. What we are discussing here, is how much weight we give to competing priorities. The way I see it, if you are too pissweak to play your game between a a couple of chucks, you are putting some minor discomfort ahead of your social responsabilities. And an adult who is so incompetant that they cannot find a baby sitter, has no business making babies it the first place and should be sterilised. Where the chess community draws its line on withdrawals is STILL open to debate. My opinion is not objectively correct, it is my subjective opinion. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

10-30-2007, 07:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	I believe that the following ARE perfectly fine reasons for withdrawing for tournaments where a number of games are played in a short space of time, such as weekenders: You have food poisoning. You have a bad cold or the 'flu. You cannot find a baby sitter. Your boss wants you to come in. etc etc The reality is that nearly all tournament players in Australia are playing chess as a HOBBY. They are doing it for fun, because they enjoy it. They are not PROFESSIONAL players. People have lives outside chess, they have families, work commitments, a social life, etc. Anal tournament organisers need to GET REAL and understand that sometimes things come up which are unavoidable and force a player out of a tournament. Fancy suggesting that someone suffering from food poisoning and is throwing up needs to come and play their chess game! What a joke. A similar joke is the penalty of banning a player from further tournaments for a withdrawal. Are tournament organisers trying to encourage or discourage players? Our sport is suffering from poor particpation as it is and tournament organisers are having a hissy fit because someone withdraws when they are ill. A different case is serial withdrawers. I support some sort of penalty for those guys....perhaps we need to establish criteria for what constitutes a serial withdrawer - 3 times in a 2 year period? Not sure, happy to discuss that one. But giving a player the 3rd degree when they withdraw ONCE (as I believe happened to Igor Goldenberg recently) is disrespectful and arrogant. The player should be given the benefit of the doubt - if they want to withdraw then obviously they have their reasons.

10-30-2007, 10:08 PM	#7 (permalink)
Unregistered Posts: n/a	LBC is Coming! Hi Matt! LBC Here... I will be posting on here soon! We can argue then!

10-31-2007, 01:41 PM	#8 (permalink)
Slav Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 28	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I had a very good reason! Maybe in NSW they don't have Blue Bottles, but I can assure you it bloody well hurt and I was light headed for most of Sunday! Also, I was still in the money after day one, so withdrawing wasn't an easy decision to make but I felt it was in my best interests overall. My health and well being comes first, sorry. Regards, AO All due respect but it is not just about you but also about the opponents you left sitting at the board without a game. What about them? __________________ Touch that Q-pawn at your own risk!

10-31-2007, 10:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
Unregistered Posts: n/a	Originally Posted by Slav All due respect but it is not just about you but also about the opponents you left sitting at the board without a game. What about them? If AO let the arbiter know that he was withdrawing and his reasons then I don't see the problem. The opponent could be re-paired or given the bye. If, however, the arbiter was not notified then that is not so cool.

10-31-2007, 10:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	Originally Posted by Slav All due respect but it is not just about you but also about the opponents you left sitting at the board without a game. What about them? If AO let the arbiter know that he was withdrawing (before the game had started) then I don't see the problem. The opponent could be re-paired or given the bye.

10-31-2007, 11:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
Slav Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 28	Originally Posted by WhiteElephant If AO let the arbiter know that he was withdrawing (before the game had started) then I don't see the problem. The opponent could be re-paired or given the bye. But that isn't what happened is it?? What happened is that two people over 2 rounds sat at the board and were cheated out of a game. What about them?? I'd say Arrogant-One owes them $10 each, 2.5 hours of their time back, and an apology just for a start. __________________ Touch that Q-pawn at your own risk!

11-01-2007, 12:07 AM	#12 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	Originally Posted by Slav But that isn't what happened is it?? What happened is that two people over 2 rounds sat at the board and were cheated out of a game. What about them?? I'd say Arrogant-One owes them $10 each, 2.5 hours of their time back, and an apology just for a start. Is that what happened? Didn't AO let the arbiter know? Who are you? Were you there?

11-01-2007, 07:59 AM	#13 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by WhiteElephant The opponent could be re-paired or given the bye. Byes:mad: Everyone - players and officials - should die to prevent them. Byes are a pox on the game. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-01-2007, 08:10 AM	#14 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Byes:mad: Everyone - players and officials - should die to prevent them. Byes are a pox on the game. I personally don't mind them but I can understand why people are annoyed by them. If you look at it another way, a withdrawal could actually eliminate a bye

11-01-2007, 09:52 AM	#15 (permalink)
Slav Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 28	Originally Posted by WhiteElephant Is that what happened? Didn't AO let the arbiter know? Who are you? Were you there? http://kingsofchess.biz/2007SPU1600.htm Kyle Ringrose and David Soul were cheated out of a game. It has further reaching consequences as well, since these players got a free point each in the last 2 rounds!! I'm not sure if this affected prizes, but I'd say it may have. __________________ Touch that Q-pawn at your own risk!

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