How Chess Victoria Owe The ACF $4,956? - OzChess

**Firegoat7** · 08-04-2010, 07:30 PM

Hi,

Does anyone have a breakdown on HOW Chessvictoria owe the ACF $4,956 for three years of unpaid junior fees?
That being

2008 $1,652
2009 $1,650
2010 $1,654

cheers,

**antichrist** · 08-04-2010, 07:43 PM

The ATO adds 12% on for unpaid debts so be careful. And my mate Ian Cohen was charged interest on that 1mill$ defamo damages bill from the time of the plaintiffs early wins years ago -so cop that

**MOZ** · 08-04-2010, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Hi,

Does anyone have a breakdown on HOW Chessvictoria owe the ACF $4,956 for three years of unpaid junior fees?
That being

2008 $1,652
2009 $1,650
2010 $1654

cheers,

hi fg7

There are two key aspects.
1) the 2008 and 2009, ASTC levy amounts were not invoiced, by the ACF, before close of accounts of CV at 30 September 2009. In fact, I don't think I have seen any documentation that the invoices were received in 2009 at all.
2) the new Treasurer, elected at the 2009 AGM, has taken up legal matters with the ACF (documented over on chesschat by Bill) in regard to amounts now invoiced by the ACF in 2010.

Late invoicing by the ACF is not unusual in my experience. Most times this was caused by FIDE charges for international rating. In 2009 I processed an ACF invoice dated for an event held in 2002.

It has been posted elsewhere that the ACF is on a bit of a campaign to cleanup their backlog of unpresented or unpaid invoices.

MOZ*

**Iconoclast** · 08-04-2010, 09:49 PM

CV should leave the ACF. Maybe CV could take WA and ACT with them since they are not so enamored with the ACF. After a little work on SA or Qld, Tas would have to come too. Forget NSW until they get rid of Bill Gletsos.

**Firegoat7** · 08-05-2010, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by MOZ

hi fg7

There are two key aspects.

Moz, thanks for the post. Is there any breakdown for the year? What I mean is, for what events does CV owe this money?
cheers,

**Just2Good** · 08-05-2010, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

CV should leave the ACF. Maybe CV could take WA and ACT with them since they are not so enamored with the ACF. After a little work on SA or Qld, Tas would have to come too. Forget NSW until they get rid of Bill Gletsos.

Forget Queensland until they toss Garvin overboard. But I agree, CV and the ACT Chess Association should leave, and maybe seek independent recognition from FIDE.

**MOZ** · 08-05-2010, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Moz, thanks for the post. Is there any breakdown for the year? What I mean is, for what events does CV owe this money?
cheers,

fg7

There are no events matey.

The fee is called (according to a motion copied to me by the ACF Treasurer)
the ACF Schools Teams Levy.
In spite of its very specific name it turns out it is a general levy that just goes straight into ACF general funds.

It is set by the ACF nationally at $6600 in each of the past three years.
Because Victoria has 24.8% of the population then we are levied 24.8% of the $6600. The fee payable by Victoria is calculated as $1650 (example figures).

When a local tournament promoter hosted the Australian School Teams Championship last year she was horrified to find that little of the levy was actually available to the event held at Scotch College, Victoria.

Instead, the ACF has handed most of the funds to the AusJCL.

**Firegoat7** · 08-05-2010, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by MOZ

fg7

There are no events matey.

The fee is called (according to a motion copied to me by the ACF Treasurer)
the ACF Schools Teams Levy.
In spite of its very specific name it turns out it is a general levy that just goes straight into ACF general funds.

It is set by the ACF nationally at $6600 in each of the past three years.
Because Victoria has 24.8% of the population then we are levied 24.8% of the $6600. The fee payable by Victoria is calculated as $1650 (example figures).

When a local tournament promoter hosted the Australian School Teams Championship last year she was horrified to find that little of the levy was actually available to the event held at Scotch College, Victoria.

Instead, the ACF has handed most of the funds to the AusJCL.

Thanks for your reply Moz,

I suspected this was the case, but needed to confirm the information. Basically then we have a situation where the Australian chess federation takes money directly from Chess Victoria as a tax then redistributes that money to an ACF junior chess league subsidiary. The question being what is the benefit for Chess Victoria here? At the moment they are investing 5% of the Chess Victoria yearly revenue stream for an elite National junior chess program. Is that money wisely spent? To answer this question we need some metric analysis! Quantity and Quality, how many juniors, especially Victorian ones etc etc. Furthermore, some evidence of how the AJCL spends this money could prove interesting.

I think DG is right to suggest that this is a moral question. Surely the ACF cannot legislate to extort profit from another independent institution ,thus in the process negating that institutions agency.

cheers,

**Just2Good** · 08-05-2010, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Thanks for your reply Moz,

I suspected this was the case, but needed to confirm the information. Basically then we have a situation where the Australian chess federation takes money directly from Chess Victoria as a tax then redistributes that money to an ACF junior chess league subsidiary. The question being what is the benefit for Chess Victoria here? At the moment they are investing 5% of the Chess Victoria yearly revenue stream for an elite National junior chess program. Is that money wisely spent? To answer this question we need some metric analysis! Quantity and Quality, how many juniors, especially Victorian ones etc etc. Furthermore, some evidence of how the AJCL spends this money could prove interesting.

I think DG is right to suggest that this is a moral question. Surely the ACF cannot legislate to extort profit from another independent institution ,thus in the process negating that institutions agency.

cheers,

It didn't help when the last time the ACF pulled a similar stunt, Libby caved in to the ACF by paying them out of her own pocket - obviously knowing the ACTCV wouldn't let her hang out to dry, and the ACTCV (as expected) then reimbursed Libby.

This set a precedent which is - when the ACF plays hardball, the ACF wins.

**Bill Gletsos** · 08-06-2010, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Just2Good

It didn't help when the last time the ACF pulled a similar stunt, Libby caved in to the ACF by paying them out of her own pocket - obviously knowing the ACTCV wouldn't let her hang out to dry, and the ACTCV (as expected) then reimbursed Libby.

This is incorrect.
The ACTJCL did not reimburse Libby, the ACF reimbursed Libby.

**Just2Good** · 08-06-2010, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos

This is incorrect.
The ACTJCL did not reimburse Libby, the ACF reimbursed Libby.

The point is Libby caved in to the pressure - pressure which never should have been applied by the ACF to begin with!

**Bill Gletsos** · 08-06-2010, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Just2Good

The point is Libby caved in to the pressure - pressure which never should have been applied by the ACF to begin with!

The point is you were once again making false statements.

**Just2Good** · 08-06-2010, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos

The point is you were once again making false statements.

The point is Libby paid the money - there is nothing false about that fact. A minor error in who reimbursed her does not make the statement false. You are a blockhead!

**Bill Gletsos** · 08-06-2010, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by Just2Good

The point is Libby paid the money - there is nothing false about that fact. A minor error in who reimbursed her does not make the statement false. You are a blockhead!

I guess this is an example of your civility.
It makes a total mockery of your claims of civility on this board.

The ACF reimbursed Libby.
The debt to the ACF was paid by the ACTJCL.

**Iconoclast** · 08-06-2010, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos

I guess this is an example of your civility.
It makes a total mockery of your claims of civility on this board.

Wrong, blockhead. It is not uncivil, it is part and parcel of a heated argument.

The ACF reimbursed Libby.

The big question is WHY did libby pay in the first place. Was there an attack dog tearing at her throat?

08-04-2010, 07:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	How Chess Victoria Owe The ACF $4,956? Hi, Does anyone have a breakdown on HOW Chessvictoria owe the ACF $4,956 for three years of unpaid junior fees? That being 2008 $1,652 2009 $1,650 2010 $1,654 cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic Last edited by Iconoclast : 08-04-2010 at 09:41 PM Reason: annoying typo :)

08-04-2010, 08:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
MOZ Volunteer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ozchess is the marginalised cyber-spot where cc-Mods choose to engage with cc-banned posters. Posts: 3,541	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Hi, Does anyone have a breakdown on HOW Chessvictoria owe the ACF $4,956 for three years of unpaid junior fees? That being 2008 $1,652 2009 $1,650 2010 $1654 cheers, hi fg7 There are two key aspects. 1) the 2008 and 2009, ASTC levy amounts were not invoiced, by the ACF, before close of accounts of CV at 30 September 2009. In fact, I don't think I have seen any documentation that the invoices were received in 2009 at all. 2) the new Treasurer, elected at the 2009 AGM, has taken up legal matters with the ACF (documented over on chesschat by Bill) in regard to amounts now invoiced by the ACF in 2010. Late invoicing by the ACF is not unusual in my experience. Most times this was caused by FIDE charges for international rating. In 2009 I processed an ACF invoice dated for an event held in 2002. It has been posted elsewhere that the ACF is on a bit of a campaign to cleanup their backlog of unpresented or unpaid invoices. MOZ* __________________ FReedom though Fischer-Random chess to enjoy the whole game.

08-04-2010, 09:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	CV should leave the ACF. Maybe CV could take WA and ACT with them since they are not so enamored with the ACF. After a little work on SA or Qld, Tas would have to come too. Forget NSW until they get rid of Bill Gletsos. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

08-05-2010, 12:25 AM	#5 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by MOZ hi fg7 There are two key aspects. Moz, thanks for the post. Is there any breakdown for the year? What I mean is, for what events does CV owe this money? cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

08-05-2010, 12:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Iconoclast CV should leave the ACF. Maybe CV could take WA and ACT with them since they are not so enamored with the ACF. After a little work on SA or Qld, Tas would have to come too. Forget NSW until they get rid of Bill Gletsos. Forget Queensland until they toss Garvin overboard. But I agree, CV and the ACT Chess Association should leave, and maybe seek independent recognition from FIDE. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

08-04-2010, 07:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	The ATO adds 12% on for unpaid debts so be careful. And my mate Ian Cohen was charged interest on that 1mill$ defamo damages bill from the time of the plaintiffs early wins years ago -so cop that

08-05-2010, 09:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
MOZ Volunteer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ozchess is the marginalised cyber-spot where cc-Mods choose to engage with cc-banned posters. Posts: 3,541	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Moz, thanks for the post. Is there any breakdown for the year? What I mean is, for what events does CV owe this money? cheers, fg7 There are no events matey. The fee is called (according to a motion copied to me by the ACF Treasurer) the ACF Schools Teams Levy. In spite of its very specific name it turns out it is a general levy that just goes straight into ACF general funds. It is set by the ACF nationally at $6600 in each of the past three years. Because Victoria has 24.8% of the population then we are levied 24.8% of the $6600. The fee payable by Victoria is calculated as $1650 (example figures). When a local tournament promoter hosted the Australian School Teams Championship last year she was horrified to find that little of the levy was actually available to the event held at Scotch College, Victoria. Instead, the ACF has handed most of the funds to the AusJCL. __________________ FReedom though Fischer-Random chess to enjoy the whole game.

08-05-2010, 03:22 PM	#8 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by MOZ fg7 There are no events matey. The fee is called (according to a motion copied to me by the ACF Treasurer) the ACF Schools Teams Levy. In spite of its very specific name it turns out it is a general levy that just goes straight into ACF general funds. It is set by the ACF nationally at $6600 in each of the past three years. Because Victoria has 24.8% of the population then we are levied 24.8% of the $6600. The fee payable by Victoria is calculated as $1650 (example figures). When a local tournament promoter hosted the Australian School Teams Championship last year she was horrified to find that little of the levy was actually available to the event held at Scotch College, Victoria. Instead, the ACF has handed most of the funds to the AusJCL. Thanks for your reply Moz, I suspected this was the case, but needed to confirm the information. Basically then we have a situation where the Australian chess federation takes money directly from Chess Victoria as a tax then redistributes that money to an ACF junior chess league subsidiary. The question being what is the benefit for Chess Victoria here? At the moment they are investing 5% of the Chess Victoria yearly revenue stream for an elite National junior chess program. Is that money wisely spent? To answer this question we need some metric analysis! Quantity and Quality, how many juniors, especially Victorian ones etc etc. Furthermore, some evidence of how the AJCL spends this money could prove interesting. I think DG is right to suggest that this is a moral question. Surely the ACF cannot legislate to extort profit from another independent institution ,thus in the process negating that institutions agency. cheers, __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

08-05-2010, 03:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Thanks for your reply Moz, I suspected this was the case, but needed to confirm the information. Basically then we have a situation where the Australian chess federation takes money directly from Chess Victoria as a tax then redistributes that money to an ACF junior chess league subsidiary. The question being what is the benefit for Chess Victoria here? At the moment they are investing 5% of the Chess Victoria yearly revenue stream for an elite National junior chess program. Is that money wisely spent? To answer this question we need some metric analysis! Quantity and Quality, how many juniors, especially Victorian ones etc etc. Furthermore, some evidence of how the AJCL spends this money could prove interesting. I think DG is right to suggest that this is a moral question. Surely the ACF cannot legislate to extort profit from another independent institution ,thus in the process negating that institutions agency. cheers, It didn't help when the last time the ACF pulled a similar stunt, Libby caved in to the ACF by paying them out of her own pocket - obviously knowing the ACTCV wouldn't let her hang out to dry, and the ACTCV (as expected) then reimbursed Libby. This set a precedent which is - when the ACF plays hardball, the ACF wins. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

08-06-2010, 12:32 AM	#10 (permalink)
Bill Gletsos Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 653	Originally Posted by Just2Good It didn't help when the last time the ACF pulled a similar stunt, Libby caved in to the ACF by paying them out of her own pocket - obviously knowing the ACTCV wouldn't let her hang out to dry, and the ACTCV (as expected) then reimbursed Libby. This is incorrect. The ACTJCL did not reimburse Libby, the ACF reimbursed Libby.

08-06-2010, 01:10 AM	#11 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos This is incorrect. The ACTJCL did not reimburse Libby, the ACF reimbursed Libby. The point is Libby caved in to the pressure - pressure which never should have been applied by the ACF to begin with! __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

08-06-2010, 01:20 AM	#12 (permalink)
Bill Gletsos Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 653	Originally Posted by Just2Good The point is Libby caved in to the pressure - pressure which never should have been applied by the ACF to begin with! The point is you were once again making false statements.

08-06-2010, 01:28 AM	#13 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos The point is you were once again making false statements. The point is Libby paid the money - there is nothing false about that fact. A minor error in who reimbursed her does not make the statement false. You are a blockhead! __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

08-06-2010, 01:39 AM	#14 (permalink)
Bill Gletsos Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 653	Originally Posted by Just2Good The point is Libby paid the money - there is nothing false about that fact. A minor error in who reimbursed her does not make the statement false. You are a blockhead! I guess this is an example of your civility. It makes a total mockery of your claims of civility on this board. The ACF reimbursed Libby. The debt to the ACF was paid by the ACTJCL.

08-06-2010, 02:40 AM	#15 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos I guess this is an example of your civility. It makes a total mockery of your claims of civility on this board. Wrong, blockhead. It is not uncivil, it is part and parcel of a heated argument. The ACF reimbursed Libby. The big question is WHY did libby pay in the first place. Was there an attack dog tearing at her throat? __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

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