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Old 01-08-2010, 05:28 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges View Post
Im not sure how good at chess you are,
The answer can be found in my postbit - Tin Cup Champion 2004!

Its true that pawn structure on the board is important, but no more so than analyzing the entire board position. Pawn structure is more or less relevant if a player has a view to reaching an advantageous endgame. Up to that point, brute tactics rule the game.
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Just2Good View Post
The answer can be found in my postbit - Tin Cup Champion 2004!

Its true that pawn structure on the board is important, but no more so than analyzing the entire board position. Pawn structure is more or less relevant if a player has a view to reaching an advantageous endgame. Up to that point, brute tactics rule the game.
I think that you are simplifying it a bit too much.

Yes, calculation (I dont like your term "brute tactics" because tactics and calculation are not the same thing really) is probably the MOST important thing to be able to do - there is no use having a good pawn structure if you cant calculate variations which will win or lose you material.

BUT, having said that, by having a structurally sound pawn structure WITHOUT WEAKENESSES (along with piece activity), the tactical opportunities will present themselves or fall your way because there are not weakenesses in your position. (then you need your calculating ability to spot them and put them into practice). This is why the tactics usually favour the player with less weakenesses in their position.

Probably most players out there have had positions (with a structural weakeness) where they are looking for tactical possibilities - but everything they calculate seems to favour their opponent (I know I have). The reason that the tactical opportunities are falling their opponents way most of the time is because the opponents position is better BECAUSE it contains no (or less) weakenesses.

On the other side of the fence, most players have also probably played games where they have had a structurally sound position and the tactics seem to just find themselves (happens to me a lot) - its because the structure is sound.

This is why it is much easier to blunder in a bad position than in a good one. Most people out there have also probably played a game where they were clearly better and their opponent blunders into a tactic and loses. Then the opponent carrys on like a pork chop about the fact that they only lost due to the blunder - but then they always had more chance of making that blunder in the first place because their position was bad anyway.

Chess is a very complicated game. Calculating ability is probably "most important" because it (like goal kicking in footy) wins matches but putting in place the structure to make tactical strokes possible (like setting up goals or moving the ball to the forward line) is also very important - but (like backmen in footy) tends to get forgotten quite a bit.

Of course the level of the improving player is also another factor regarding what they should study. Players who are at around 1100-1200 should really be starting to learn (if they havnt already) about pawn structure. They may still make it to the 1500 type mark without it, but it will be a lot more difficult for them to do so. New players (school kids who have just learnt and adults who are new to the game) need to concentrate on calculation (and piece activity) first and foremost though - because they have to get to a level where they are competitive (as opposed to a level where they are simply losing pieces constantly). Once they are competitive (not losing material constantly) which in my opinion is around 1000-1200, then they need to start learning about other parts of chess such as (but not limited to) pawn structure. Someone of Pablito (who started this thread)'s level is clearly competitive calculation-wise. If Pablito hasnt leant about pawn structure yet, he is at a level where it is an important part of chess. From what I have seen of Pablitos chess (the few blitz games I have played with him), he is on the right track already, but as I said much much much earlier in this thread, all players (probably including Pablito) need to work much much harder at the board - this, "Just2Good" is essentially CALCULATION - but pawn structure is still very important - especially for players of Pablitos level who are already very competitive but are not yet playing at A - Grade level.
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:30 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Grant, when are you going to write a chess book?

Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges View Post
Im not sure how good at chess you are, but it sounds like you either dont understand pawn structure or completely underestimate it.

"Dont double your pawns"??? Doubled pawns can often be very strong as they open files and often solidify a block of squares (in the Rubinstein French for example after ...gxf6) Doubled pawns are in my opinion the most overrated pawn "weakness" in chess. While they can be very weak (eg in the white side of the Nimzo Indian in the endgame), it is much more important not to get yourself stuck with:

1. backward pawns on open lines (these virtually never give you any counter play)

2. isolated pawns on open lines (these can be ok if you generate enough dynamic play around them but they make you structurally worse and there is always the threat of a weak endgame hanging over your head).

These sorts of weaknesses are very easy to attack with heavy pieces (queens and rooks) and they both allow knight outposts in front of them. Surely you acknowledge that knight outposts are important!

You would be amazed how many weaker players lose games because they dont take enough care of their pawn structure. In a nutshell, its about not creating weaknesses. Pawns dont move backwards, so every pawn move you make is a committment and possibly a weakness. If you move a knight to a weak square you can move it back later, but if you make pawn weakenesses, you are stuck with them.

DONT CREATE WEAKNESSES!

You would be amazed at the countless number of games I have won because my opponents have created pawn weakenesses. Even a lot of 1700-1800 type players still create these weakenesses regularly.

Now you also mention "a timely pawn push". Im not sure whether you are referring to a PAWN BREAK or not, but if so, pawn breaks are really important too. You need to know where possible pawn breaks will occur in any given position (positions of a closed or locked up nature anyway). By knowing where to prepare the pawn break, it makes it easier to find the right plan:

Eg. In the Kings Indian when there is a locked up centre (white with pawns on e4 and d5 and black with pawns on e5 and d6), the natural pawn breaks are ...f5 for black and c5 for white. The reason for this is that they come on the side of the board where each side has more space. Of course sometimes black breaks with c6 and white with f4, but these pawn breaks are less commmon and usually not the first or "natural" option. All of this comes down to a simple rule in chess - ATTACK ON THE SIDE OF THE BOARD WHERE YOU HAVE MORE SPACE. (Imagine trying to attack on the kingside as black in the Sicilian Dragon when white has all the space over there). The reason why one side has the space in the first place is usually because of their PAWN STRUCTURE. Pawn breaks are possible because of ones pawn structure. Chess needs to be looked at holistically and the pawn structure is one very important element of this.

Of course pawn structure is not the be all and end all of chess - in some positions (often resulting from very open e4,e5 type openings) in doesnt matter at all. But in most games, pawn structure is vital and being aware of it helps one to not create weakenesses - and to hopefully win the game. That said though, if you cant/dont calculate then its no use learning about pawn structure because another part of your game (your calculation) will let you down. But if you understand pawn structure AND understand calculation, piece activity etc, then you will be a good chance to improve your chess dramatically.
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:33 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges View Post
I think that you are simplifying it a bit too much.

Yes, calculation (I dont like your term "brute tactics" because tactics and calculation are not the same thing really) is probably the MOST important thing to be able to do - there is no use having a good pawn structure if you cant calculate variations which will win or lose you material.

BUT, having said that, by having a structurally sound pawn structure WITHOUT WEAKENESSES (along with piece activity), the tactical opportunities will present themselves or fall your way because there are not weakenesses in your position. (then you need your calculating ability to spot them and put them into practice). This is why the tactics usually favour the player with less weakenesses in their position.

Probably most players out there have had positions (with a structural weakeness) where they are looking for tactical possibilities - but everything they calculate seems to favour their opponent (I know I have). The reason that the tactical opportunities are falling their opponents way most of the time is because the opponents position is better BECAUSE it contains no (or less) weakenesses.

On the other side of the fence, most players have also probably played games where they have had a structurally sound position and the tactics seem to just find themselves (happens to me a lot) - its because the structure is sound.

This is why it is much easier to blunder in a bad position than in a good one. Most people out there have also probably played a game where they were clearly better and their opponent blunders into a tactic and loses. Then the opponent carrys on like a pork chop about the fact that they only lost due to the blunder - but then they always had more chance of making that blunder in the first place because their position was bad anyway.

Chess is a very complicated game. Calculating ability is probably "most important" because it (like goal kicking in footy) wins matches but putting in place the structure to make tactical strokes possible (like setting up goals or moving the ball to the forward line) is also very important - but (like backmen in footy) tends to get forgotten quite a bit.

Of course the level of the improving player is also another factor regarding what they should study. Players who are at around 1100-1200 should really be starting to learn (if they havnt already) about pawn structure. They may still make it to the 1500 type mark without it, but it will be a lot more difficult for them to do so. New players (school kids who have just learnt and adults who are new to the game) need to concentrate on calculation (and piece activity) first and foremost though - because they have to get to a level where they are competitive (as opposed to a level where they are simply losing pieces constantly). Once they are competitive (not losing material constantly) which in my opinion is around 1000-1200, then they need to start learning about other parts of chess such as (but not limited to) pawn structure. Someone of Pablito (who started this thread)'s level is clearly competitive calculation-wise. If Pablito hasnt leant about pawn structure yet, he is at a level where it is an important part of chess. From what I have seen of Pablitos chess (the few blitz games I have played with him), he is on the right track already, but as I said much much much earlier in this thread, all players (probably including Pablito) need to work much much harder at the board - this, "Just2Good" is essentially CALCULATION - but pawn structure is still very important - especially for players of Pablitos level who are already very competitive but are not yet playing at A - Grade level.
A very good post Grant! A lot of things that make sense.
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:53 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Just2Good View Post
A very good post Grant! A lot of things that make sense.
cheers, thanks
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:57 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Heartbreak Kid View Post
Grant, when are you going to write a chess book?
Dunno...... one day.... Hopefully someone would buy it!!!
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:03 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I had exactly the same thoughts as hbk .

Grant has shown above an ability to convey very clearly communicated ideas , befitting of a fine chess author .
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges View Post
Dunno...... one day.... Hopefully someone would buy it!!!
Those two posts were brilliant

now which one to pick for POTM... :S
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Indeed Mr. Szuveges, pawn structure is one of the beautiful things in chess, this game blew my mind:

Lasker V Capablanca, Moscow 1935
"The penalty of passivity" (From Ch1 of A.Soltis' "Pawn Structure Chess")

This game did a couple of things for me, the most obvious are the appreciation of a beautiful game of chess. As I said even if I never reach a level of chess to be able to pick out one lasker-esque move i'll still be able to enjoy a game like that. Secondly, through studying pawn structure, it opened up a whole new way to study Space, Tempi, Blocking off the opposition whilst gaining play slowly for yourself. And thirdly it showed me that even though I appreciated and understood the buildup, I failed to understand many of the tactics/choices at the end without the notes (forget about being able to pick out any of those moves for myself!) and so am justified in choosing to study 43820 tactical problems before I continue with this part of chess study.

ps. for some reason it put the game in twice... The second game is the complete one
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Old 01-09-2010, 10:39 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges View Post
How can pawn structure score 0%??????? Pawn structure is REALLY REALLY important. Stronger players take pawn structure for granted, but weaker players often dont know much about it at all (I know this through coaching people). The pawn structure is the wall or the foundation of the house or the tree. The pieces are the bricks or the monkeys, squirrels or koalas that play through the tree (whichever analogy you like best). I think that people who learn about and understand pawn structure well, often improve a lot and become strong players. Pawn structure dictates so much in chess.

If people understand (not just know about, but really understand) passed pawns, protected passed pawns, isolated pawns, hanging pawns, backward pawns, doubled pawns and pawn islands, chess will become a lot easier for them to play. They wont necessarily get better (that comes through hard work and using all of Pablitos criteria together), but chess will get easier for them.

My biggest ever improvement was from reading a book. It was 1964, I''d not even been to a chess club, a few of us used to play at school during lunch. Andrew Mellor and I were about equal, and then I read a book. I can't even remember what it was! After that, I beat him nearly every time.

One of the other kids was Brand Hoff, he took me to Tuart Hill when Wolf Leonhardt (then WA champion) as giving a simul. I was good enough then to win my game.
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:35 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
What happens is that the more you play the more your vision and tactical ability remains in form. When you have long breaks this is the first thing that goes, that is your ability to calculate.

What a lot of improving chess players need to understand is that chess is actually a language. Also it is not one language but two, Calculation and Positional judgement.
The calculative part is often done pictorially with the mind. This denigrates without practice. I have found that verbalising the process actually slows you down here, but helps comprehension.
Positional judgement is something most players do intuitively, but ignore to their own detriment. This requires classification of knowledge and it is something you can spend your whole chess career on. The more subtle it is the better it becomes.

cheers,
mmm- which brings study techniques into the discussion.

Most of you have probably heard of a popular book by Michael De Maza called Rapid Chess Improvement. He suggests a "7 circles" technique where you get a program like CT Art with 1200 tactical problems from real games, and repeat solving the same 1200 problems 7 times. First in 64 days, then 32 and finally in a day. Obviously the idea is memory, to burn the problems into your brain.

Personally... i'm not doing that just yet. Maybe one day I will but at the moment i'm just going through a few different books of combinations. Anyhow- I wonder what the most effective technique for studying tactics is.

ps. A couple of links to study tactics:

Chess Tactics Server
Chess Tactics

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Old 01-10-2010, 10:23 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pablito15 View Post
mmm- which brings study techniques into the discussion.

Most of you have probably heard of a popular book by Michael De Maza called Rapid Chess Improvement. He suggests a "7 circles" technique where you get a program like CT Art with 1200 tactical problems from real games, and repeat solving the same 1200 problems 7 times. First in 64 days, then 32 and finally in a day. Obviously the idea is memory, to burn the problems into your brain.

Personally... i'm not doing that just yet. Maybe one day I will but at the moment i'm just going through a few different books of combinations. Anyhow- I wonder what the most effective technique for studying tactics is.

ps. A couple of links to study tactics:

Chess Tactics Server
Chess Tactics
That chess tactics server is very very good actually. Like the book you mentioned, it uses positions from real games. I believe that it is important to study tactics in positions which are from real games or at the very least, from realistic positions which could occur in games. A lot of people waste a lot of time studying problems where for example, there are 5 queens on the board, a king at f5, 3 pieces on prix and a forced checkmate in 4 moves. It is highly unlikely that anyone at tournament level would get a position like this (even from the Fried Liver Attack and Traxler openings) and if they did, they would most probably just swap down and win the ending easily (assuming that they were the player with the extra queens!). The quality of what one studys is in my opinion, far more important than the quantity. One hour of studying tactics from real games is much more beneficial than 6 weeks of unrealistic mate in 4 positions. If you dont have a book of combinations, just pick up any chess book (eg. Karpov/Kasparov/Fischer/Petrosian)s best games and go to each diagrammed position and find the combination - thats usually why the diagram is where it is. Its not a glamorous way to study, but its very effective - as Ive said before, there is no substitute for hard work.

What I do find interesting though, is whether people like to study tactics right before a game. Its probably different with different people. It works well for some people because it warms them up for the game and gets them into the zone where they will calculate and look for possibilities. Whereas it doesnt work well for others because it burns them out and they find that they dont have the energy to work hard at the board. It may also be bad subconsciously because the player will subconsciously think "Ive done the hard work already" instead of "Im playing now, now is when I must work hard". What do others think? Id particularly like to hear from Carl Gorka actually.
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:19 AM   #28 (permalink)
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heh heh.. Just found a not too praising article by J. Silman on that Michael De Maza book I mentioned above:

Rapid Chess Improvement: A Study Plan for Adult Players

As for your question Grant, I often used to come into the club early on tournament day and study for a while before games. Mainly because I work in the city and it doesn't make sense to go home, but, I was always greeted by Mr. Gatto telling me to take a rest! Personally I have no idea how/if it effects my game, i'm usually studying games or last minute scrambling of opening theory i'll forget within minutes.

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Old 01-11-2010, 08:56 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Grant Szuveges View Post
What I do find interesting though, is whether people like to study tactics right before a game. Its probably different with different people. It works well for some people because it warms them up for the game and gets them into the zone where they will calculate and look for possibilities. Whereas it doesnt work well for others because it burns them out and they find that they dont have the energy to work hard at the board. It may also be bad subconsciously because the player will subconsciously think "Ive done the hard work already" instead of "Im playing now, now is when I must work hard". What do others think? Id particularly like to hear from Carl Gorka actually.
I think it is up to each individual to work out their own pre game preparation and once they've found what they're comfortable with, then stick to it. There is certainly no harm in warm up blitz or solving a few puzzles. Most players will at least look over the shoulder of a blitz game even if they don't play. To say that studying tactics before a game burns them out is probably nonsense. To say they don't like to do that is fine with me. Just as long as they don't start whinging about not being sharp.

If tennis players can spend an hour on the practice court before a game, I don't see why chess players shouldn't try some warm up exercises so they don't pull a muscle in their brain
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:19 PM   #30 (permalink)
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How about, what held back you chess the most?

I'd have to say the women and the power.

Other than that I'd probably say preferring blitz/needless opening stuff to hard study.
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