Italian Game - OzChess

**mowcop** · 03-01-2008, 10:46 AM

Has anyone had any experience, or know of any recent theory in the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7.

A kid I was teaching played this as he considered it the most natural move.

Cheers

**mowcop** · 03-01-2008, 09:39 PM

Ok, I found the following game, which shows just how difficult things can be for White if he doesn't know what he's doing....btw, White is so good, he should have known what he was doing!!

Short,N (2682) - Xie Jun (2562) [C58]
Queens-Kings Jinan (1), 21.07.2002

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Nc3 0-0 9.0-0 Bg4 10.Qxe5 Bd6 11.Qd4 c5 12.Qd3 a6 13.h3 Bc8 14.Ba4 b5 15.Nxb5 axb5 16.Bxb5 c4 17.Qd4 Bb7 18.d3 Bxd5 19.Be3 Qc7 20.Rad1 Bh2+ 21.Kh1 Be5 22.Qc5 Qb7 23.f3 Rfc8 24.Qb6 Qxb6 25.Bxb6 Rcb8 26.Bxa5 Rxb5 27.Bc3 Bxc3 28.bxc3 h6 29.Ne4 Bxe4 30.dxe4 Rxa2 31.Rd4 Rxc2 32.Rxc4 Rbb2 33.Rg1 Nh5 34.e5 Ng3+ 35.Kh2 Ne2 36.Re1 g5 37.Rg4 Kg7 38.h4 Kg6 39.hxg5 hxg5 40.Ra1 Nf4 41.Ra6+ Kh5 42.Rf6 Nxg2 43.Kg3 Ne3 0-1

According to Korchnoi, after 11.Qd4 White is losing

**Chessic-Adventures** · 03-01-2008, 10:44 PM

So your pupil actually played the correct Bd7 then?

**mowcop** · 03-01-2008, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Chessic-Adventures

So your pupil actually played the correct Bd7 then?

Yes he played it, and got a good position out of it. I'm not saying it is correct, but it is an interesting option to the more heavily analysed 6..c6.

I'm just trying to work out if there is anything particularly wrong with it.

**Chessic-Adventures** · 03-01-2008, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by mowcop

Yes he played it, and got a good position out of it. I'm not saying it is correct, but it is an interesting option to the more heavily analysed 6..c6.

I'm just trying to work out if there is anything particularly wrong with it.

Where did you find the game above? Is this the only GM game where the Bd7move has been tried at top levels?

**mowcop** · 03-01-2008, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Chessic-Adventures

Where did you find the game above? Is this the only GM game where the Bd7move has been tried at top levels?

No, quite a few games, just in databases. Quite a famous game is Morozevich-Sokolov, Sarajevo 1999, where Moro pretty much destroyed an established line. Here's that game:

Morozevich,A (2720) - Sokolov,I (2620) [C58]
Sarajevo Bosnia 29th Sarajevo (1), 17.05.1999

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Qe2 Bd6 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Bxd7 Qxd7 10.a3 b6 11.d3 c6 12.b4 Nb7 13.dxc6 Qxc6 14.Nce4 Nd7 15.Qf3 Be7 16.Nxh7 Rfc8 17.Nhg5 f6 18.Nh3 Qxc2 19.0-0 Nd8 20.Be3 Qc6 21.d4 Nf7 22.Rad1 Nf8 23.Qg4 Qe6 24.Qxe6 Nxe6 25.d5 Nf8 26.d6 Bd8 27.g4 Rc4 28.f3 g6 29.Kh1 Rac8 30.Nhf2 Nd7 31.Rg1 Kf8 32.Rg3 Rc2 33.h4 Re2 34.Bd2 f5 35.gxf5 Bxh4 36.Rh3 Bxf2 37.fxg6 Rxd2 38.Nxd2 Nxd6 39.Ne4 Nxe4 40.Rh8+ Kg7 41.Rxc8 1-0

After 10.a3 Black is already struggling.

**Chessic-Adventures** · 03-01-2008, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by mowcop

No, quite a few games, just in databases. Quite a famous game is Morozevich-Sokolov, Sarajevo 1999, where Moro pretty much destroyed an established line. Here's that game:

Morozevich,A (2720) - Sokolov,I (2620) [C58]
Sarajevo Bosnia 29th Sarajevo (1), 17.05.1999

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Qe2 Bd6 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Bxd7 Qxd7 10.a3 b6 11.d3 c6 12.b4 Nb7 13.dxc6 Qxc6 14.Nce4 Nd7 15.Qf3 Be7 16.Nxh7 Rfc8 17.Nhg5 f6 18.Nh3 Qxc2 19.0-0 Nd8 20.Be3 Qc6 21.d4 Nf7 22.Rad1 Nf8 23.Qg4 Qe6 24.Qxe6 Nxe6 25.d5 Nf8 26.d6 Bd8 27.g4 Rc4 28.f3 g6 29.Kh1 Rac8 30.Nhf2 Nd7 31.Rg1 Kf8 32.Rg3 Rc2 33.h4 Re2 34.Bd2 f5 35.gxf5 Bxh4 36.Rh3 Bxf2 37.fxg6 Rxd2 38.Nxd2 Nxd6 39.Ne4 Nxe4 40.Rh8+ Kg7 41.Rxc8 1-0

After 10.a3 Black is already struggling.

Cool game. I haven't seen anything from Sokolov in some time!

**vagrantnomad** · 03-04-2008, 12:45 AM

not a bad game but this will make your day-

"images/smilies/biggrin1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />

**Gumshoe Mystery** · 08-08-2008, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by vagrantnomad

not a bad game but this will make your day-"images/smilies/biggrin1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />

Um... An interesting find vagrantnomad. Wasn't close to anything I was expecting going into the link either, lol

**Fischer-Fan** · 08-09-2008, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by vagrantnomad

not a bad game but this will make your day-"images/smilies/biggrin1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />

This clip looks like it is from the 1970's!

**EcoChess** · 10-22-2008, 04:45 AM

Hi:
Probably black must play 6...c6 and not 6...Bd7.
But, Bb5 take Bd7 or back Be2.
Here, you can see games about this variation: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Na5 6 Bb5 variation
I see you later!

**Axiom Support Group** · 10-22-2008, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by EcoChess

Hi:
Probably black must play 6...c6 and not 6...Bd7.
But, Bb5 take Bd7 or back Be2.
Here, you can see games about this variation: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Na5 6 Bb5 variation
I see you later!

That's the wrong variation! You are confusing the Guico Piana and the Italian I think.

**Simon** · 11-28-2008, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Thomas Bishop

That's the wrong variation! You are confusing the Guico Piana and the Italian I think.

Yes, I agree. Maybe it would help if we could see some Italian Games. I will try to put some up.

**Simon** · 11-28-2008, 01:08 PM

Okay, here goes. Lets hope this works.

**Simon** · 11-28-2008, 01:09 PM

Ha ha, I did it!!!!!

Also, after Karparov lost this game, I wonder if he stopped playing the Italian

03-01-2008, 10:46 AM	#1 (permalink)
mowcop fireeater Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 825	Italian Game Has anyone had any experience, or know of any recent theory in the line: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7. A kid I was teaching played this as he considered it the most natural move. Cheers __________________ Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand I'm trying out a new blog site..... http://gorkachc.blogspot.com/

03-01-2008, 09:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
mowcop fireeater Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 825	Ok, I found the following game, which shows just how difficult things can be for White if he doesn't know what he's doing....btw, White is so good, he should have known what he was doing!! Short,N (2682) - Xie Jun (2562) [C58] Queens-Kings Jinan (1), 21.07.2002 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Nc3 0-0 9.0-0 Bg4 10.Qxe5 Bd6 11.Qd4 c5 12.Qd3 a6 13.h3 Bc8 14.Ba4 b5 15.Nxb5 axb5 16.Bxb5 c4 17.Qd4 Bb7 18.d3 Bxd5 19.Be3 Qc7 20.Rad1 Bh2+ 21.Kh1 Be5 22.Qc5 Qb7 23.f3 Rfc8 24.Qb6 Qxb6 25.Bxb6 Rcb8 26.Bxa5 Rxb5 27.Bc3 Bxc3 28.bxc3 h6 29.Ne4 Bxe4 30.dxe4 Rxa2 31.Rd4 Rxc2 32.Rxc4 Rbb2 33.Rg1 Nh5 34.e5 Ng3+ 35.Kh2 Ne2 36.Re1 g5 37.Rg4 Kg7 38.h4 Kg6 39.hxg5 hxg5 40.Ra1 Nf4 41.Ra6+ Kh5 42.Rf6 Nxg2 43.Kg3 Ne3 0-1 According to Korchnoi, after 11.Qd4 White is losing __________________ Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand I'm trying out a new blog site..... http://gorkachc.blogspot.com/

03-01-2008, 11:01 PM	#4 (permalink)
mowcop fireeater Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 825	Originally Posted by Chessic-Adventures So your pupil actually played the correct Bd7 then? Yes he played it, and got a good position out of it. I'm not saying it is correct, but it is an interesting option to the more heavily analysed 6..c6. I'm just trying to work out if there is anything particularly wrong with it. __________________ Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand I'm trying out a new blog site..... http://gorkachc.blogspot.com/

03-01-2008, 11:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
Chessic-Adventures Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 221	Originally Posted by mowcop Yes he played it, and got a good position out of it. I'm not saying it is correct, but it is an interesting option to the more heavily analysed 6..c6. I'm just trying to work out if there is anything particularly wrong with it. Where did you find the game above? Is this the only GM game where the Bd7move has been tried at top levels?

03-01-2008, 11:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
mowcop fireeater Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 825	Originally Posted by Chessic-Adventures Where did you find the game above? Is this the only GM game where the Bd7move has been tried at top levels? No, quite a few games, just in databases. Quite a famous game is Morozevich-Sokolov, Sarajevo 1999, where Moro pretty much destroyed an established line. Here's that game: Morozevich,A (2720) - Sokolov,I (2620) [C58] Sarajevo Bosnia 29th Sarajevo (1), 17.05.1999 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Qe2 Bd6 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Bxd7 Qxd7 10.a3 b6 11.d3 c6 12.b4 Nb7 13.dxc6 Qxc6 14.Nce4 Nd7 15.Qf3 Be7 16.Nxh7 Rfc8 17.Nhg5 f6 18.Nh3 Qxc2 19.0-0 Nd8 20.Be3 Qc6 21.d4 Nf7 22.Rad1 Nf8 23.Qg4 Qe6 24.Qxe6 Nxe6 25.d5 Nf8 26.d6 Bd8 27.g4 Rc4 28.f3 g6 29.Kh1 Rac8 30.Nhf2 Nd7 31.Rg1 Kf8 32.Rg3 Rc2 33.h4 Re2 34.Bd2 f5 35.gxf5 Bxh4 36.Rh3 Bxf2 37.fxg6 Rxd2 38.Nxd2 Nxd6 39.Ne4 Nxe4 40.Rh8+ Kg7 41.Rxc8 1-0 After 10.a3 Black is already struggling. __________________ Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand I'm trying out a new blog site..... http://gorkachc.blogspot.com/

03-01-2008, 10:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
Chessic-Adventures Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 221	So your pupil actually played the correct Bd7 then?

03-01-2008, 11:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
Chessic-Adventures Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 221	Originally Posted by mowcop No, quite a few games, just in databases. Quite a famous game is Morozevich-Sokolov, Sarajevo 1999, where Moro pretty much destroyed an established line. Here's that game: Morozevich,A (2720) - Sokolov,I (2620) [C58] Sarajevo Bosnia 29th Sarajevo (1), 17.05.1999 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Qe2 Bd6 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Bxd7 Qxd7 10.a3 b6 11.d3 c6 12.b4 Nb7 13.dxc6 Qxc6 14.Nce4 Nd7 15.Qf3 Be7 16.Nxh7 Rfc8 17.Nhg5 f6 18.Nh3 Qxc2 19.0-0 Nd8 20.Be3 Qc6 21.d4 Nf7 22.Rad1 Nf8 23.Qg4 Qe6 24.Qxe6 Nxe6 25.d5 Nf8 26.d6 Bd8 27.g4 Rc4 28.f3 g6 29.Kh1 Rac8 30.Nhf2 Nd7 31.Rg1 Kf8 32.Rg3 Rc2 33.h4 Re2 34.Bd2 f5 35.gxf5 Bxh4 36.Rh3 Bxf2 37.fxg6 Rxd2 38.Nxd2 Nxd6 39.Ne4 Nxe4 40.Rh8+ Kg7 41.Rxc8 1-0 After 10.a3 Black is already struggling. Cool game. I haven't seen anything from Sokolov in some time!

03-04-2008, 12:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
vagrantnomad Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: qld at the moment Posts: 272	not a bad game but this will make your day-"images/smilies/biggrin1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />

08-08-2008, 07:46 AM	#9 (permalink)
Gumshoe Mystery Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Bundaberg Posts: 141	Originally Posted by vagrantnomad not a bad game but this will make your day-"images/smilies/biggrin1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" /> Um... An interesting find vagrantnomad. Wasn't close to anything I was expecting going into the link either, lol __________________ “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

08-09-2008, 12:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
Fischer-Fan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Perth Posts: 152	Originally Posted by vagrantnomad not a bad game but this will make your day-"images/smilies/biggrin1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" /> This clip looks like it is from the 1970's! __________________ Patzer see check, patzer give check! - Bobby Fischer

10-22-2008, 04:45 AM	#11 (permalink)
EcoChess Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4	Games about your variation in two knights defense Hi: Probably black must play 6...c6 and not 6...Bd7. But, Bb5 take Bd7 or back Be2. Here, you can see games about this variation: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Na5 6 Bb5 variation I see you later!

10-22-2008, 05:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
Axiom Support Group Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Laku, Ishmaelia Posts: 141	Originally Posted by EcoChess Hi: Probably black must play 6...c6 and not 6...Bd7. But, Bb5 take Bd7 or back Be2. Here, you can see games about this variation: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Na5 6 Bb5 variation I see you later! That's the wrong variation! You are confusing the Guico Piana and the Italian I think.

11-28-2008, 01:04 PM	#13 (permalink)
Simon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 182	Originally Posted by Thomas Bishop That's the wrong variation! You are confusing the Guico Piana and the Italian I think. Yes, I agree. Maybe it would help if we could see some Italian Games. I will try to put some up.

11-28-2008, 01:09 PM	#15 (permalink)
Simon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 182	Ha ha, I did it!!!!! Also, after Karparov lost this game, I wonder if he stopped playing the Italian

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