Looking for CV Financial Statements - OzChess

**ChessGuru** · 09-10-2009, 07:10 PM

My latest blog post is a worrying one.

In wanderings amongst clubs this past few weeks I have happened upon some very disgruntled chess players/administrators. Horrid allegations and rumors about CV finances. (I think stemming from a lack of communication rather than any actual mis-use of funds.)

As I have said from the start; I believe that the CV committee is doing the best they can with the resources they have available. But maybe their best isn't good enough?

I know that a couple of CV executive members post on this forum; I'd like to call on them to answer the allegations of financial mis-management.

Do you have any financial statements?

(Does anyone have the budget/statements produced for the last AGM?)

**Z&MLoh** · 09-10-2009, 07:35 PM

Based on rumours and innuendos, you've made a claim that there is financial mismanagement at Chess Victoria. What you are doing is nothing more than fishing for information to attack the current committee. Reminds me of opposition parties in the parliament. If I were a voting member, I would not support you just because of the way you've gone about your business.

**ChessGuru** · 09-10-2009, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Z&MLoh

Based on rumours and innuendos, you've made a claim that there is financial mismanagement at Chess Victoria. What you are doing is nothing more than fishing for information to attack the current committee. Reminds me of opposition parties in the parliament. If I were a voting member, I would not support you just because of the way you've gone about your business.

I believe that there is nothing happening which is inAPPROPRIATE but only inEFFICIENT.

I'd encourage CV to correct this simply and easily by reporting that:
a) financial statements were available to clubs well in advance of the prior AGM and will be again this year
b) there is a current financial statement (monthly?) and clubs have been given copies

As I said - it is simply a lack of communication (which, by the way, I think is "mis-management" but perhaps not in the way you implied).

I have not once attacked the actions of the current committee and will not attack them. I stand not for what has happened or not happened in the past, but for what can be done better in the future.

I don't think you'll have to worry about who to vote for...from what I've heard it looks like it will be an unopposed election.

**SHump** · 09-11-2009, 12:56 PM

Yes each club should hold a copy of the previous financials. But also, as per the CV constitution:

12 (1) The Executive shall cause to be distributed with the notice of the Annual General Meeting a proposed budget.
(2) The proposed budget shall show all significant items of income and expenditure it is proposed be received and incurred during the forthcoming Financial Year as well as the exact amount proposed as each fee, fine, levy, entrance fee, subscription and other amount (if any) to be paid in respect of membership of the Association, affiliation of Clubs and registration of players.

And so a new CV budget will come out with the AGM notice, if it hasn't already..

**Just2Good** · 09-11-2009, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by ChessGuru

My latest blog post is a worrying one.

In wanderings amongst clubs this past few weeks I have happened upon some very disgruntled chess players/administrators. Horrid allegations and rumors about CV finances. (I think stemming from a lack of communication rather than any actual mis-use of funds.)

I just read the story on your blog David.

If I may say, that is one top quality blog you run in my opinion.

I do hope that the ACF considers you for the journalism award they previously awarded to The Closet Grandmaster's blogger.

**flavid dude** · 09-18-2009, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I just read the story on your blog David.

If I may say, that is one top quality blog you run in my opinion.

I do hope that the ACF considers you for the journalism award they previously awarded to The Closet Grandmaster's blogger.

Unfortunately some drongos might think that you meant what you said and not realize that you were being sarcastic.

**ChessGuru** · 09-18-2009, 07:05 PM

My latest Blog Post.

**flavid dude** · 09-19-2009, 12:35 PM

Comments on David Cordover's latest blog. For clarity David's blog is put in italics These comments are meant to be constructive.

I’ve estimated that 5000 potential new club members are slipping through our fingers every year!
Why? What’s the problem? And how can we stop it?
The vast majority of these players are players who have been coached but never reach the clubs.

I have noticed that while players from many coaches regularly turn up in our club especially at our monthly Rookies Cups we have received about one player who was coached by Chess Kids. To me this suggests that Chess Kids has done little in the past to support the clubs. There is no reason that this company cannot do more irrespective of the result of the Chess Victoria election.

Another problem which has not been mentioned is that there is a large population of chess players who only play on the internet and never play humans face to face. This is a potential source of players

Take a look at the pyramid of players and notice that chess clubs are focused on chess players rated between 1200 and 1600.* Our pyramid leaves the responsibility for players below 1200 to “schools/coaches”. Chess Kids has created a structure (the Player Pathway) to bring players from 0 to 1200 (then with a small overlap, pass them into the care of chess clubs).

I disagree strongly on this point. At Box Hill we have a thriving coaching system where many players start with negligible ratings and improve rapidly. Furthermore they learn and improve rapidly. (Increases of 300-400 rating points in a year are common.) Another point is that clubs should concentrate on a narrow range between 1200 1600 ratings. Approximately half of of our members have ratings in excess of 1600. We are certainly not going to abandon them.
At the top end I think that the top level of the pyramid is a very bad idea. Certainly Chess Victoria should provide tournaments for top players. However in my opinion these should as in the past be run by clubs (subject to a tendering process which has worked well to date).

But this still leaves a gap through which 5000 players a year are falling. Where is it?
We need to recognize that there are 2 categories of 0-1200 players. One is kids;
I have already mentioned my opinion that Chess Kids does very little to introduce children to the chess clubs.
the other is adults!
What if you are an adult and rated below 1200? Perhaps you’ve never played chess before! Here is a customer who is not being looked after, nobody even considers this customer.
We do at Box Hill. Yes we have adults in our coaching. There is considerable scope for expansion.

Looking back to a previous blog post we see that one of the greatest things about chess is its ageless nature. It doesn’t matter when you learn to play – and yet while lots is being done for kids to learn; Chess Victoria steadfastly ignores the possibility that adults might like to learn chess too!

This is a good point but I think that coaching should take place by commercial coaches and clubs

This is an area which one would suspect has great potential for the future. We keep hearing about the aging population – more and more people with time and money on their hands looking for something to do. They’re less likely to be physically capable of taking up basketball, ice-hockey or football… but want a challenging and social ’sporting’ environment. Plus take into account the benefits of chess; slowing dementia, preventing Alzheimer’s, keeping the mind active, combating depression etc.
Clubs can partner with coaches and schools to continue to generate new members from the 800-1200 range; but where do they find new adult club members who are currently in the 800-1200 range? Unless you can find new adult members then chess clubs are doomed anyway – if all your new members are 8 years old there is a lack of stability and a lack of organisational capability (not many 8 year-old’s want to be on a committee – although I know a lot who’d do a better job than some current committees!).

That is hyperbole David. Name one committee that would do a worse job than eight year olds.
Some clubs will find it in the parents who come with their kids. If you’re not looking there now; start looking!

In this case you are right on the money. One of the reasons that our club has been successful is that we have involved the parents. They do not needs to be able to play chess to provide great help to the club.

I think every club should be partnering not only with coaches/schools, but also with Social Chess Clubs. Elwood with the guys in the botanical gardens; Melbourne Chess Club with the guys at the Glenroy Library; Dandenong or Noble Park with the guys in the Springvale shopping centre; all clubs with their local U3A or community centre.
If clubs can develop a positive relationship with these social clubs by providing them with tuition, resources, advice and information then hopefully the Social Clubs will one day evolve to become Affiliated Clubs or the members who are looking to take the next step will comfortably make the transition the local Club.
This is an area in which Chess Victoria should be showing leadership and creating activity. Identify an area of weakness and do something to fix it.
CV and clubs tend to do what is easy – taking the path of least resistance. Usually that involves doing something that is already being done. Strong leadership wouldn’t be throwing energy into yet MORE junior chess and leaving thousands of adults who want to learn with nowhere to learn and thousands of juniors wanting to play with no club in their area to do so.

Good stuff David
And we haven’t even mentioned the dire lack of female chess players…when will CV attack that challenge?

Clearly David you have not checked this out by visiting our club. We have some very promising female players, including the current Australian and Victorian JuniorChampions.

In my opinion this is a very typical David Cordover Blog. It mixes some very good ideas, some half baked ideas and some factual errors.

**Just2Good** · 09-19-2009, 03:30 PM

And we haven’t even mentioned the dire lack of female chess players…when will CV attack that challenge?

I thought there were many girl junior chess players these days. Is that not the case in Victoria?

**flavid dude** · 09-19-2009, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I thought there were many girl junior chess players these days. Is that not the case in Victoria?

Yes there are many more girls playing chess than there used to be in Victoria.

**Calvin** · 09-19-2009, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by elvis

Yes there are many more girls playing chess than there used to be in Victoria.

Someone recently told me they play chess to meet women! Seriously, no joke.

**SHump** · 09-19-2009, 07:52 PM

As to the online members being a source of new chess club members:

On chess.com there are 23,000 Australian players, while the ACF lists 3,000 active players. So there is certainly a POTENTIAL set of new members. How to crack the perceived advantages of online chess though: can do it from home, do it for free, whenever you want, and play against others of similar ability. The last item can be catered for by a chess club, the other items are harder.

Personally, I have decided this year to return to OTB chess and am loving it. However I also play a lot of online chess, so it is not an either/or decision. I use online chess to try out ideas and just to relax. Each to their own I suppose.

I am finding OTB chess however to be 'real' chess. Online chess has an element of 'uncaring' about it - the result does not matter as much to me as OTB chess. Maybe others also feel that way re OTB chess? To instill that ethos or excitement into new OTB players could be a way to attract new members. So at Ranges we see events like the Rookies Shield as a way to bring OTB chess to a new audience as it generally attracts beginners or newer players.

**Just2Good** · 09-19-2009, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by SHump

As to the online members being a source of new chess club members:

On chess.com there are 23,000 Australian players, while the ACF lists 3,000 active players. So there is certainly a POTENTIAL set of new members. How to crack the perceived advantages of online chess though: can do it from home, do it for free, whenever you want, and play against others of similar ability. The last item can be catered for by a chess club, the other items are harder.

Personally, I have decided this year to return to OTB chess and am loving it. However I also play a lot of online chess, so it is not an either/or decision. I use online chess to try out ideas and just to relax. Each to their own I suppose.

I am finding OTB chess however to be 'real' chess. Online chess has an element of 'uncaring' about it - the result does not matter as much to me as OTB chess. Maybe others also feel that way re OTB chess? To instill that ethos or excitement into new OTB players could be a way to attract new members. So at Ranges we see events like the Rookies Shield as a way to bring OTB chess to a new audience as it generally attracts beginners or newer players.

I wish to nominate this as a post of the month! Great post Scott!

**flavid dude** · 09-20-2009, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I wish to nominate this as a post of the month! Great post Scott!

I wonder how many play on ICC and FICS as well. Clearly there is some duplication but there is a heap of chess players out there that the clubs never see.

**ChessGuru** · 09-20-2009, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by elvis

I have noticed that while players from many coaches regularly turn up in our club especially at our monthly Rookies Cups we have received about one player who was coached by Chess Kids.

Speaking of factual errors.... if you take a look at your top juniors you'll see quite a few who started with Chess Kids; Derek/Sally Yu, James Morris, Thomas Feng, Jason Tang, Vanja Rosenblat, Kyle Gibson, (Laurence Matheson was in our Elite program, although we didn't coach his school) and I'm sure the list goes on --- in recent years (probably 4-5 years) Chess Kids has been very focused on growing the base of the pyramid and not done any private coaching or work with kids much above 800 strength. Due to the high turnover of club members it's no surprise that you see very few Chess Kids players left...because a Club is basically an environment suited to 1200-1600 players your new members are naturally coming from coaches such as Johansen, Hacche etc who do work with kids between 800-1200 and can easily take the next step.

We are working on building a sustainable and scalable model for taking kids 800-1200.

Take a look at the really sticky players and I'd guess most of them have had some involvement with Chess Kids... I don't really think that getting a member for 6 -12 months then never seeing them again is a success.

I'd say we refer about 5 people per week to the Box Hill club. What happens to them after that I have no idea.

Originally Posted by elvis

To me this suggests that Chess Kids has done little in the past to support the clubs. There is no reason that this company cannot do more irrespective of the result of the Chess Victoria election.

You must sow before you can reap. Box Hill is so vehemently anti-Chess Kids (for no particular reason) you are lucky that I'm such a nice guy (easy going and hard to offend) - an average person would respond in kind. But I believe in always taking the higher road.

Originally Posted by elvis

At Box Hill we have a thriving coaching system where many players start with negligible ratings and improve rapidly. Furthermore they learn and improve rapidly. (Increases of 300-400 rating points in a year are common.) Another point is that clubs should concentrate on a narrow range between 1200 1600 ratings. Approximately half of of our members have ratings in excess of 1600. We are certainly not going to abandon them.

So why do you only have between 100 or 200 members? Why is your turnover so high? If you were truly providing for your members you'd have 500+ by now. I'm not saying that Box Hill isn't doing well - it is clearly doing brilliantly --- but you do have a lot of privileges (strong partnership with Chess Ideas and now other businesses and a slightly incestuous marriage with Chess Victoria) which other clubs don't have. And you can ALWAYS do better.

Remember - Box Hill ISN'T the only club in Victoria. What about the others?? We all know you are doing well, now it is time to share some of your successes with other clubs.

What I am talking about is creating plans and structures which benefit ALL CLUBS not just Box Hill. That is what a Chess Victoria President should be doing.

Just because you FOCUS on a particular area doesn't mean that you ABANDON all others.

Your FOCUS might be to study the Alekhine defence; that is your primary opening. You still can do some work on the French; but that's more a backup. Your rating will continue to drop if you think you can be an expert in EVERY OPENING.

Focus.

[quote=elvis;18956]At the top end I think that the top level of the pyramid is a very bad idea. Certainly Chess Victoria should provide tournaments for top players. However in my opinion these should as in the past be run by clubs (subject to a tendering process which has worked well to date).[/FOCUS]

For Box Hill it has. How's Mentone going? Or Frankston? Or MCC? Think about others please.

Originally Posted by elvis

That is hyperbole David. Name one committee that would do a worse job than eight year olds.

You underestimate 8 year olds.

Originally Posted by elvis

Clearly David you have not checked this out by visiting our club. We have some very promising female players, including the current Australian and Victorian JuniorChampions.

Stop thinking that the world revolves around Box Hill. Yes, you are great. Now let's see if we can turn that greatness from a small pond (box hill) to a bigger pond (chess victoria). That is my goal.

I'd like to see 35% female participation - even the mighty Box Hill is MILES away from that.

09-10-2009, 07:10 PM	#1 (permalink)
ChessGuru Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 232	Looking for CV Financial Statements My latest blog post is a worrying one. In wanderings amongst clubs this past few weeks I have happened upon some very disgruntled chess players/administrators. Horrid allegations and rumors about CV finances. (I think stemming from a lack of communication rather than any actual mis-use of funds.) As I have said from the start; I believe that the CV committee is doing the best they can with the resources they have available. But maybe their best isn't good enough? I know that a couple of CV executive members post on this forum; I'd like to call on them to answer the allegations of financial mis-management. Do you have any financial statements? (Does anyone have the budget/statements produced for the last AGM?)

09-10-2009, 07:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
ChessGuru Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 232	Originally Posted by Z&MLoh Based on rumours and innuendos, you've made a claim that there is financial mismanagement at Chess Victoria. What you are doing is nothing more than fishing for information to attack the current committee. Reminds me of opposition parties in the parliament. If I were a voting member, I would not support you just because of the way you've gone about your business. I believe that there is nothing happening which is inAPPROPRIATE but only inEFFICIENT. I'd encourage CV to correct this simply and easily by reporting that: a) financial statements were available to clubs well in advance of the prior AGM and will be again this year b) there is a current financial statement (monthly?) and clubs have been given copies As I said - it is simply a lack of communication (which, by the way, I think is "mis-management" but perhaps not in the way you implied). I have not once attacked the actions of the current committee and will not attack them. I stand not for what has happened or not happened in the past, but for what can be done better in the future. I don't think you'll have to worry about who to vote for...from what I've heard it looks like it will be an unopposed election.

09-11-2009, 12:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
SHump Hamilton Chess, NZ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton, Waikato, New Zealand Posts: 216	Yes each club should hold a copy of the previous financials. But also, as per the CV constitution: 12 (1) The Executive shall cause to be distributed with the notice of the Annual General Meeting a proposed budget. (2) The proposed budget shall show all significant items of income and expenditure it is proposed be received and incurred during the forthcoming Financial Year as well as the exact amount proposed as each fee, fine, levy, entrance fee, subscription and other amount (if any) to be paid in respect of membership of the Association, affiliation of Clubs and registration of players. And so a new CV budget will come out with the AGM notice, if it hasn't already.. __________________ Scott.. Hamilton Chess club (http://hamiltonchess.net/) secretary and chess enthusiast!

09-11-2009, 03:44 PM	#5 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by ChessGuru My latest blog post is a worrying one. In wanderings amongst clubs this past few weeks I have happened upon some very disgruntled chess players/administrators. Horrid allegations and rumors about CV finances. (I think stemming from a lack of communication rather than any actual mis-use of funds.) I just read the story on your blog David. If I may say, that is one top quality blog you run in my opinion. I do hope that the ACF considers you for the journalism award they previously awarded to The Closet Grandmaster's blogger. __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

09-18-2009, 11:53 AM	#6 (permalink)
flavid dude Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 336	great posting Arrogant One Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I just read the story on your blog David. If I may say, that is one top quality blog you run in my opinion. I do hope that the ACF considers you for the journalism award they previously awarded to The Closet Grandmaster's blogger. Unfortunately some drongos might think that you meant what you said and not realize that you were being sarcastic.

09-10-2009, 07:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
Z&MLoh Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 286	Based on rumours and innuendos, you've made a claim that there is financial mismanagement at Chess Victoria. What you are doing is nothing more than fishing for information to attack the current committee. Reminds me of opposition parties in the parliament. If I were a voting member, I would not support you just because of the way you've gone about your business.

09-18-2009, 07:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
ChessGuru Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 232	My latest Blog Post.

09-19-2009, 12:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
flavid dude Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 336	A critique of David Cordovers latest blog Comments on David Cordover's latest blog. For clarity David's blog is put in italics These comments are meant to be constructive. I’ve estimated that 5000 potential new club members are slipping through our fingers every year! Why? What’s the problem? And how can we stop it? The vast majority of these players are players who have been coached but never reach the clubs. I have noticed that while players from many coaches regularly turn up in our club especially at our monthly Rookies Cups we have received about one player who was coached by Chess Kids. To me this suggests that Chess Kids has done little in the past to support the clubs. There is no reason that this company cannot do more irrespective of the result of the Chess Victoria election. Another problem which has not been mentioned is that there is a large population of chess players who only play on the internet and never play humans face to face. This is a potential source of players Take a look at the pyramid of players and notice that chess clubs are focused on chess players rated between 1200 and 1600.* Our pyramid leaves the responsibility for players below 1200 to “schools/coaches”. Chess Kids has created a structure (the Player Pathway) to bring players from 0 to 1200 (then with a small overlap, pass them into the care of chess clubs). I disagree strongly on this point. At Box Hill we have a thriving coaching system where many players start with negligible ratings and improve rapidly. Furthermore they learn and improve rapidly. (Increases of 300-400 rating points in a year are common.) Another point is that clubs should concentrate on a narrow range between 1200 1600 ratings. Approximately half of of our members have ratings in excess of 1600. We are certainly not going to abandon them. At the top end I think that the top level of the pyramid is a very bad idea. Certainly Chess Victoria should provide tournaments for top players. However in my opinion these should as in the past be run by clubs (subject to a tendering process which has worked well to date). But this still leaves a gap through which 5000 players a year are falling. Where is it? We need to recognize that there are 2 categories of 0-1200 players. One is kids; I have already mentioned my opinion that Chess Kids does very little to introduce children to the chess clubs. the other is adults! What if you are an adult and rated below 1200? Perhaps you’ve never played chess before! Here is a customer who is not being looked after, nobody even considers this customer. We do at Box Hill. Yes we have adults in our coaching. There is considerable scope for expansion. Looking back to a previous blog post we see that one of the greatest things about chess is its ageless nature. It doesn’t matter when you learn to play – and yet while lots is being done for kids to learn; Chess Victoria steadfastly ignores the possibility that adults might like to learn chess too! This is a good point but I think that coaching should take place by commercial coaches and clubs This is an area which one would suspect has great potential for the future. We keep hearing about the aging population – more and more people with time and money on their hands looking for something to do. They’re less likely to be physically capable of taking up basketball, ice-hockey or football… but want a challenging and social ’sporting’ environment. Plus take into account the benefits of chess; slowing dementia, preventing Alzheimer’s, keeping the mind active, combating depression etc. Clubs can partner with coaches and schools to continue to generate new members from the 800-1200 range; but where do they find new adult club members who are currently in the 800-1200 range? Unless you can find new adult members then chess clubs are doomed anyway – if all your new members are 8 years old there is a lack of stability and a lack of organisational capability (not many 8 year-old’s want to be on a committee – although I know a lot who’d do a better job than some current committees!). That is hyperbole David. Name one committee that would do a worse job than eight year olds. Some clubs will find it in the parents who come with their kids. If you’re not looking there now; start looking! In this case you are right on the money. One of the reasons that our club has been successful is that we have involved the parents. They do not needs to be able to play chess to provide great help to the club. I think every club should be partnering not only with coaches/schools, but also with Social Chess Clubs. Elwood with the guys in the botanical gardens; Melbourne Chess Club with the guys at the Glenroy Library; Dandenong or Noble Park with the guys in the Springvale shopping centre; all clubs with their local U3A or community centre. If clubs can develop a positive relationship with these social clubs by providing them with tuition, resources, advice and information then hopefully the Social Clubs will one day evolve to become Affiliated Clubs or the members who are looking to take the next step will comfortably make the transition the local Club. This is an area in which Chess Victoria should be showing leadership and creating activity. Identify an area of weakness and do something to fix it. CV and clubs tend to do what is easy – taking the path of least resistance. Usually that involves doing something that is already being done. Strong leadership wouldn’t be throwing energy into yet MORE junior chess and leaving thousands of adults who want to learn with nowhere to learn and thousands of juniors wanting to play with no club in their area to do so. Good stuff David And we haven’t even mentioned the dire lack of female chess players…when will CV attack that challenge? Clearly David you have not checked this out by visiting our club. We have some very promising female players, including the current Australian and Victorian JuniorChampions. In my opinion this is a very typical David Cordover Blog. It mixes some very good ideas, some half baked ideas and some factual errors.

09-19-2009, 03:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	And we haven’t even mentioned the dire lack of female chess players…when will CV attack that challenge? I thought there were many girl junior chess players these days. Is that not the case in Victoria? __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

09-19-2009, 06:31 PM	#10 (permalink)
flavid dude Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 336	girl chess players Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I thought there were many girl junior chess players these days. Is that not the case in Victoria? Yes there are many more girls playing chess than there used to be in Victoria.

09-19-2009, 07:25 PM	#11 (permalink)
Calvin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 268	Originally Posted by elvis Yes there are many more girls playing chess than there used to be in Victoria. Someone recently told me they play chess to meet women! Seriously, no joke.

09-19-2009, 07:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
SHump Hamilton Chess, NZ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton, Waikato, New Zealand Posts: 216	online chess members As to the online members being a source of new chess club members: On chess.com there are 23,000 Australian players, while the ACF lists 3,000 active players. So there is certainly a POTENTIAL set of new members. How to crack the perceived advantages of online chess though: can do it from home, do it for free, whenever you want, and play against others of similar ability. The last item can be catered for by a chess club, the other items are harder. Personally, I have decided this year to return to OTB chess and am loving it. However I also play a lot of online chess, so it is not an either/or decision. I use online chess to try out ideas and just to relax. Each to their own I suppose. I am finding OTB chess however to be 'real' chess. Online chess has an element of 'uncaring' about it - the result does not matter as much to me as OTB chess. Maybe others also feel that way re OTB chess? To instill that ethos or excitement into new OTB players could be a way to attract new members. So at Ranges we see events like the Rookies Shield as a way to bring OTB chess to a new audience as it generally attracts beginners or newer players. __________________ Scott.. Hamilton Chess club (http://hamiltonchess.net/) secretary and chess enthusiast!

09-19-2009, 09:51 PM	#13 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,233 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by SHump As to the online members being a source of new chess club members: On chess.com there are 23,000 Australian players, while the ACF lists 3,000 active players. So there is certainly a POTENTIAL set of new members. How to crack the perceived advantages of online chess though: can do it from home, do it for free, whenever you want, and play against others of similar ability. The last item can be catered for by a chess club, the other items are harder. Personally, I have decided this year to return to OTB chess and am loving it. However I also play a lot of online chess, so it is not an either/or decision. I use online chess to try out ideas and just to relax. Each to their own I suppose. I am finding OTB chess however to be 'real' chess. Online chess has an element of 'uncaring' about it - the result does not matter as much to me as OTB chess. Maybe others also feel that way re OTB chess? To instill that ethos or excitement into new OTB players could be a way to attract new members. So at Ranges we see events like the Rookies Shield as a way to bring OTB chess to a new audience as it generally attracts beginners or newer players. I wish to nominate this as a post of the month! Great post Scott! __________________ . "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." ~ Isaiah Berlin ~

09-20-2009, 05:20 AM	#14 (permalink)
flavid dude Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 336	I could not agree more. Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I wish to nominate this as a post of the month! Great post Scott! I wonder how many play on ICC and FICS as well. Clearly there is some duplication but there is a heap of chess players out there that the clubs never see.

09-20-2009, 01:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
ChessGuru Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 232	Originally Posted by elvis I have noticed that while players from many coaches regularly turn up in our club especially at our monthly Rookies Cups we have received about one player who was coached by Chess Kids. Speaking of factual errors.... if you take a look at your top juniors you'll see quite a few who started with Chess Kids; Derek/Sally Yu, James Morris, Thomas Feng, Jason Tang, Vanja Rosenblat, Kyle Gibson, (Laurence Matheson was in our Elite program, although we didn't coach his school) and I'm sure the list goes on --- in recent years (probably 4-5 years) Chess Kids has been very focused on growing the base of the pyramid and not done any private coaching or work with kids much above 800 strength. Due to the high turnover of club members it's no surprise that you see very few Chess Kids players left...because a Club is basically an environment suited to 1200-1600 players your new members are naturally coming from coaches such as Johansen, Hacche etc who do work with kids between 800-1200 and can easily take the next step. We are working on building a sustainable and scalable model for taking kids 800-1200. Take a look at the really sticky players and I'd guess most of them have had some involvement with Chess Kids... I don't really think that getting a member for 6 -12 months then never seeing them again is a success. I'd say we refer about 5 people per week to the Box Hill club. What happens to them after that I have no idea. Originally Posted by elvis To me this suggests that Chess Kids has done little in the past to support the clubs. There is no reason that this company cannot do more irrespective of the result of the Chess Victoria election. You must sow before you can reap. Box Hill is so vehemently anti-Chess Kids (for no particular reason) you are lucky that I'm such a nice guy (easy going and hard to offend) - an average person would respond in kind. But I believe in always taking the higher road. Originally Posted by elvis At Box Hill we have a thriving coaching system where many players start with negligible ratings and improve rapidly. Furthermore they learn and improve rapidly. (Increases of 300-400 rating points in a year are common.) Another point is that clubs should concentrate on a narrow range between 1200 1600 ratings. Approximately half of of our members have ratings in excess of 1600. We are certainly not going to abandon them. So why do you only have between 100 or 200 members? Why is your turnover so high? If you were truly providing for your members you'd have 500+ by now. I'm not saying that Box Hill isn't doing well - it is clearly doing brilliantly --- but you do have a lot of privileges (strong partnership with Chess Ideas and now other businesses and a slightly incestuous marriage with Chess Victoria) which other clubs don't have. And you can ALWAYS do better. Remember - Box Hill ISN'T the only club in Victoria. What about the others?? We all know you are doing well, now it is time to share some of your successes with other clubs. What I am talking about is creating plans and structures which benefit ALL CLUBS not just Box Hill. That is what a Chess Victoria President should be doing. Just because you FOCUS on a particular area doesn't mean that you ABANDON all others. Your FOCUS might be to study the Alekhine defence; that is your primary opening. You still can do some work on the French; but that's more a backup. Your rating will continue to drop if you think you can be an expert in EVERY OPENING. Focus. [quote=elvis;18956]At the top end I think that the top level of the pyramid is a very bad idea. Certainly Chess Victoria should provide tournaments for top players. However in my opinion these should as in the past be run by clubs (subject to a tendering process which has worked well to date).[/FOCUS] For Box Hill it has. How's Mentone going? Or Frankston? Or MCC? Think about others please. Originally Posted by elvis That is hyperbole David. Name one committee that would do a worse job than eight year olds. You underestimate 8 year olds. Originally Posted by elvis Clearly David you have not checked this out by visiting our club. We have some very promising female players, including the current Australian and Victorian JuniorChampions. Stop thinking that the world revolves around Box Hill. Yes, you are great. Now let's see if we can turn that greatness from a small pond (box hill) to a bigger pond (chess victoria). That is my goal. I'd like to see 35% female participation - even the mighty Box Hill is MILES away from that.

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