Aust Championships 2012 - OzChess

**antichrist** · 12-15-2011, 01:39 AM

David Beaumont FG7 is complaining that he has been placed in Reserves by Leonid in spite of him being rated higher than 5 players going for champ qualification.

Are the organisers just expressing what David has applied for? That is is David only having a stir?

**Vlad** · 12-15-2011, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by antichrist

David Beaumont FG7 is complaining that he has been placed in Reserves by Leonid in spite of him being rated higher than 5 players going for champ qualification.

Are the organisers just expressing what David has applied for? That is is David only having a stir?

There are 5 players? Really??

**Firegoat7** · 12-15-2011, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Vlad

There are 5 players? Really??

6 Actually.

and...what about Doug Hamilton?? let the guy play in the championship.

**Vlad** · 12-15-2011, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

6 Actually.

and...what about Doug Hamilton?? let the guy play in the championship.

1.Karl Zelesco---(VIC)---subject to the selectors approval
2.Michael Sugrue----( VIC)---- subject to the selectors approval
3.Justin Penrose----(VIC)----subject to the selectors approval
4.Jonas Muller(QLD)---subject to the selectors approval

Only 4 who are waiting for the decision, have FIDE ratings below yours.

It is true that there are players like Liu Yi who have ACF close to 2200, but their FIDE has not adjusted yet. But if you take the games rated in the current period, his January FIDE will be higher.

**antichrist** · 12-15-2011, 10:38 AM

Leonid has announced in Shoutbox on Bight Side of Moon that he has added David Beaumont to the Aust Chmpionshp 2012 list subject to selectors approval. And accordingly Gary Wastell will review boths lists tonight and selector do their job.

**Firegoat7** · 12-15-2011, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Vlad

1.Karl Zelesco---(VIC)---subject to the selectors approval
2.Michael Sugrue----( VIC)---- subject to the selectors approval
3.Justin Penrose----(VIC)----subject to the selectors approval
4.Jonas Muller(QLD)---subject to the selectors approval

Only 4 who are waiting for the decision, have FIDE ratings below yours.

It is true that there are players like Liu Yi who have ACF close to 2200, but their FIDE has not adjusted yet. But if you take the games rated in the current period, his January FIDE will be higher.

6 Players have a Fide rating below my rating. I am not partial to all the information, so some may qualify by other means. I don't think it is really fair to bring future ratings into the discussion.

Here are the other two.

90. 3201996 Beaumont, David 2051 7
91. 3211681 McClymont, Brodie 2049 0
92. 3206360 Grigg, Sam 2048
93. 3204189 Jackson, Ralph E. 2046
94. 3201740 Viner, Phillip 2046
95. 3212882 Starke, Andrew 2043
96. 3208311 Sykes, Alexander 2043
97. 3204022 Penrose, Justin 2042
98. 3210588 Liu, Yi

BTW I still thing Doug Hamilton and Nigel Barrow have strong cases. Isn't Nigel an automatic entry? Both are listed in the reserves.

**Vlad** · 12-15-2011, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

I don't think it is really fair to bring future ratings into the discussion.

Why not? It is future ratings but it is old games.

You take somebody like Liu Yi, who last week finished first in the Australian Young Masters with the performance rating about 2250 (note that was against some of the strongest kids in Australia who are mostly underrated). He will add about 40 rating points just from 9 games. His current 2039 is nowhere near his real strength. He is truly a 2200 player at the moment.

Or you take Anton, whose current FIDE rating is 2063. Just after playing 16 games (FORD +Australian Young Masters), he increased his rating by about 54 points, his January rating is expected to be 2117. Ok, he did not have great AYM because it is hard to play against other kids (only 13 rating points increase), but his FORD performance was 2400+, his rating increased by 41 points just from 7 games.

For most of the last period his ACF was moving somewhere around 2150-2180 level, but the results in the last two weekenders (Vikings and Sunshine Coast) were pretty bad and that is why his December rating dropped to 2130 level. Earlier he also played in the NSW junior championship (which he could have chosen not to play), where it was expected that he would lose some points. He shared the first but lost at least 40 points.

However, his performance rating during the whole period, in which he played more than 50 games, was 2150+. In the AYM his performance was also 2150+. That make it more than 60 games with a 2150+ performance. He is truly at least a 2150 player at the moment. And the reason why in my view he has a strong case, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he is only 10 as somebody shouted earlier in the shoutbox. Irrespectively of who you are, if you can have a 2150+ performance over such a large number of games, you should be allowed to play in the championship.

You seriously do not think selectors should use this information when they are making their decision? Only old ratings which are based on the games that were played more than half a year ago?

**antichrist** · 12-15-2011, 01:24 PM

Anton, with that record and if he can safely take the pressure due to his young age, surely deserves to be in

**frankablanca** · 12-15-2011, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

Anton, with that record and if he can safely take the pressure due to his young age, surely deserves to be in

Talking about handling pressure, most kids are far better than adult players. And Anton is one of the best among them.

**Firegoat7** · 12-15-2011, 05:41 PM

Hi,

Originally Posted by Vlad

You seriously do not think selectors should use this information when they are making their decision? Only old ratings which are based on the games that were played more than half a year ago?

I don't recall anybody saying that they should not play in the event, so what is everybody worried about?

But to put it in perspective for you I hope they play and do well in the event. I also hope that myself and Penrose get to play them in the event.

**antichrist** · 12-15-2011, 06:01 PM

from what I have seen some of the prospects are extremely closely ranked, are the December ratings used, were there unplayed games or not all results in on time?

**antichrist** · 12-16-2011, 09:44 AM

1997!! 9 152 43 Beaumont, David

found this in one rating thread

**The Analyst Times** · 12-20-2011, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by antichrist

David Beaumont FG7 is complaining that he has been placed in Reserves by Leonid in spite of him being rated higher than 5 players going for champ qualification.

Are the organisers just expressing what David has applied for? That is is David only having a stir?

The regulations for entry to the Australian Championships are clear and logged here. The regulations allow for discretion and decision by the Selection Group, and committees will always want to exercise such.
It is fanciful to imagine hard and fast deterministic rules without discretion getting through the constitutional gate-keepers.
Given that practical reality, the question becomes how do we get fairness for all, but allow discretion.

The situation would be improved if the exercise of discretion under section 3 in a given year to allow a player rated as low as 1999 say, had the flow-on effect to section 2 so that the 2150 lower threshhold was moved down to 1999. That is, if the selection committee approves entry for a player rated at 1999 then all players which have an ACF rating, whether provisional or not, of at least 1999, should be automatically eligible.

The Selection Group has discretion and exercises discretion; the chess playing populus gets fairness.

**Firegoat7** · 12-20-2011, 09:56 PM

Hi,

William Gletsos, Denis Jessop and Kevin Bonham are the three people who select the fields for the Australian championship. None of them have ever been over 2150 ACF. Why do we let 3 patzers decide who should or should not play?

This is problem yes?

**antichrist** · 12-20-2011, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Hi,

William Gletsos, Denis Jessop and Kevin Bonham are the three people who select the fields for the Australian championship. None of them have ever been over 2150 ACF. Why do we let 3 patzers decide who should or should not play?

This is problem yes?

Another problem is the conflict of interest they have in deciding your case - they are your greatest fans.

And do you know that Denis took umbrage at me assisting them with their choices by polling whether 10 year olds should be allowed into the open.

Btw did their selection differ from those ""chosen"" by Leonid originally?

12-15-2011, 01:39 AM	#1 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Aust Championships 2012 David Beaumont FG7 is complaining that he has been placed in Reserves by Leonid in spite of him being rated higher than 5 players going for champ qualification. Are the organisers just expressing what David has applied for? That is is David only having a stir?

12-15-2011, 09:06 AM	#2 (permalink)
Vlad Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 36	Originally Posted by antichrist David Beaumont FG7 is complaining that he has been placed in Reserves by Leonid in spite of him being rated higher than 5 players going for champ qualification. Are the organisers just expressing what David has applied for? That is is David only having a stir? There are 5 players? Really??

12-15-2011, 09:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by Vlad There are 5 players? Really?? 6 Actually. and...what about Doug Hamilton?? let the guy play in the championship. __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

12-15-2011, 09:35 AM	#4 (permalink)
Vlad Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 36	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 6 Actually. and...what about Doug Hamilton?? let the guy play in the championship. 1.Karl Zelesco---(VIC)---subject to the selectors approval 2.Michael Sugrue----( VIC)---- subject to the selectors approval 3.Justin Penrose----(VIC)----subject to the selectors approval 4.Jonas Muller(QLD)---subject to the selectors approval Only 4 who are waiting for the decision, have FIDE ratings below yours. It is true that there are players like Liu Yi who have ACF close to 2200, but their FIDE has not adjusted yet. But if you take the games rated in the current period, his January FIDE will be higher.

12-15-2011, 10:38 AM	#5 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Best of luck David - hope't wanted you wanted! Leonid has announced in Shoutbox on Bight Side of Moon that he has added David Beaumont to the Aust Chmpionshp 2012 list subject to selectors approval. And accordingly Gary Wastell will review boths lists tonight and selector do their job.

12-15-2011, 11:17 AM	#6 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Originally Posted by Vlad 1.Karl Zelesco---(VIC)---subject to the selectors approval 2.Michael Sugrue----( VIC)---- subject to the selectors approval 3.Justin Penrose----(VIC)----subject to the selectors approval 4.Jonas Muller(QLD)---subject to the selectors approval Only 4 who are waiting for the decision, have FIDE ratings below yours. It is true that there are players like Liu Yi who have ACF close to 2200, but their FIDE has not adjusted yet. But if you take the games rated in the current period, his January FIDE will be higher. 6 Players have a Fide rating below my rating. I am not partial to all the information, so some may qualify by other means. I don't think it is really fair to bring future ratings into the discussion. Here are the other two. 90. 3201996 Beaumont, David 2051 7 91. 3211681 McClymont, Brodie 2049 0 92. 3206360 Grigg, Sam 2048 93. 3204189 Jackson, Ralph E. 2046 94. 3201740 Viner, Phillip 2046 95. 3212882 Starke, Andrew 2043 96. 3208311 Sykes, Alexander 2043 97. 3204022 Penrose, Justin 2042 98. 3210588 Liu, Yi BTW I still thing Doug Hamilton and Nigel Barrow have strong cases. Isn't Nigel an automatic entry? Both are listed in the reserves. __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

12-15-2011, 01:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
Vlad Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 36	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 I don't think it is really fair to bring future ratings into the discussion. Why not? It is future ratings but it is old games. You take somebody like Liu Yi, who last week finished first in the Australian Young Masters with the performance rating about 2250 (note that was against some of the strongest kids in Australia who are mostly underrated). He will add about 40 rating points just from 9 games. His current 2039 is nowhere near his real strength. He is truly a 2200 player at the moment. Or you take Anton, whose current FIDE rating is 2063. Just after playing 16 games (FORD +Australian Young Masters), he increased his rating by about 54 points, his January rating is expected to be 2117. Ok, he did not have great AYM because it is hard to play against other kids (only 13 rating points increase), but his FORD performance was 2400+, his rating increased by 41 points just from 7 games. For most of the last period his ACF was moving somewhere around 2150-2180 level, but the results in the last two weekenders (Vikings and Sunshine Coast) were pretty bad and that is why his December rating dropped to 2130 level. Earlier he also played in the NSW junior championship (which he could have chosen not to play), where it was expected that he would lose some points. He shared the first but lost at least 40 points. However, his performance rating during the whole period, in which he played more than 50 games, was 2150+. In the AYM his performance was also 2150+. That make it more than 60 games with a 2150+ performance. He is truly at least a 2150 player at the moment. And the reason why in my view he has a strong case, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he is only 10 as somebody shouted earlier in the shoutbox. Irrespectively of who you are, if you can have a 2150+ performance over such a large number of games, you should be allowed to play in the championship. You seriously do not think selectors should use this information when they are making their decision? Only old ratings which are based on the games that were played more than half a year ago?

12-15-2011, 01:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Anton, with that record and if he can safely take the pressure due to his young age, surely deserves to be in

12-15-2011, 01:31 PM	#9 (permalink)
frankablanca Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 18	Originally Posted by antichrist Anton, with that record and if he can safely take the pressure due to his young age, surely deserves to be in Talking about handling pressure, most kids are far better than adult players. And Anton is one of the best among them.

12-15-2011, 05:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Hi, Originally Posted by Vlad You seriously do not think selectors should use this information when they are making their decision? Only old ratings which are based on the games that were played more than half a year ago? I don't recall anybody saying that they should not play in the event, so what is everybody worried about? But to put it in perspective for you I hope they play and do well in the event. I also hope that myself and Penrose get to play them in the event. __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

12-15-2011, 06:01 PM	#11 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	from what I have seen some of the prospects are extremely closely ranked, are the December ratings used, were there unplayed games or not all results in on time?

12-16-2011, 09:44 AM	#12 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	1997!! 9 152 43 Beaumont, David found this in one rating thread

12-20-2011, 06:35 PM	#13 (permalink)
The Analyst Times Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 22	Originally Posted by antichrist David Beaumont FG7 is complaining that he has been placed in Reserves by Leonid in spite of him being rated higher than 5 players going for champ qualification. Are the organisers just expressing what David has applied for? That is is David only having a stir? The regulations for entry to the Australian Championships are clear and logged here. The regulations allow for discretion and decision by the Selection Group, and committees will always want to exercise such. It is fanciful to imagine hard and fast deterministic rules without discretion getting through the constitutional gate-keepers. Given that practical reality, the question becomes how do we get fairness for all, but allow discretion. The situation would be improved if the exercise of discretion under section 3 in a given year to allow a player rated as low as 1999 say, had the flow-on effect to section 2 so that the 2150 lower threshhold was moved down to 1999. That is, if the selection committee approves entry for a player rated at 1999 then all players which have an ACF rating, whether provisional or not, of at least 1999, should be automatically eligible. The Selection Group has discretion and exercises discretion; the chess playing populus gets fairness.

12-20-2011, 09:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Hi, William Gletsos, Denis Jessop and Kevin Bonham are the three people who select the fields for the Australian championship. None of them have ever been over 2150 ACF. Why do we let 3 patzers decide who should or should not play? This is problem yes? __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

12-20-2011, 11:37 PM	#15 (permalink)
antichrist Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Byron Bay, NSW Posts: 2,821	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Hi, William Gletsos, Denis Jessop and Kevin Bonham are the three people who select the fields for the Australian championship. None of them have ever been over 2150 ACF. Why do we let 3 patzers decide who should or should not play? This is problem yes? Another problem is the conflict of interest they have in deciding your case - they are your greatest fans. And do you know that Denis took umbrage at me assisting them with their choices by polling whether 10 year olds should be allowed into the open. Btw did their selection differ from those ""chosen"" by Leonid originally?

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