Go Back   OzChess - Australia's Chess Forum > Australian Chess and General Chess Topics > Chess Tournaments in Australia
Connect with Facebook

Reply
 
LinkBack (1) Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 10-12-2009, 10:15 PM   #76 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Firegoat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB
Posts: 1,924
ICC Handle: guest
Default

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
If that is the case then you clearly do not understand the laws of chess regarding three fold repetition claims.

In accordance with Article 9.2b since the position has appeared 3 times once you moved Qe2+ on your 63rd move then your opponent on his move is entitled to claim the draw.
Why are you such a stupid person who displays time and time again the most incredible inability to understand the most basic of issues in chess?
Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
There is no such requirement under the relevant artcile which is Article 9.2b.
O really?
Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
That does not appear to be the case.
O really?
Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
According to the Gary Bekker they rejected the ruling of the arbiter that the game was drawn.
They conspired to achieve the same result!
Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
His age is unimportant.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course it is relevant. If his age was unimportant then simply ask yourself at what point would it become important? 14,12,10 or 6 years old?
Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
What is relevant is how well all members of the appeals committee understand the laws of chess.
No. Without wanting to make this sound an attack on James, which it is not, I wish to make this point. If James Morris was the most intelligent gifted intellectual on the planet with an IQ of 200 I would still argue that because he is a minor he should not be on the disputes committee. You would argue that age is not important, I disagree. Never shall the two viewpoints meet. End of story.

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
Based on your comments above you clearly do not and hence should not serve on an appeals committee.
Haha Get a clue about what really happened, you ignorant ratings abuser!
__________________
"...What I meant?

Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public.

What they meant?

Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic


Firegoat7 is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 10:23 PM   #77 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 653
Default

Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Correct. And this is the key point. My opponent clearly does not understand the rules of chess. If he is offering a draw then that offer has to be accepted by me for the game to end, and I never accepted the draw offer.
Correct.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
If he is claiming draw by repetition he has to inform the arbiter that the position is a triple repetition position, which he did not do.
Incorrect. There is no requirement under Article 9.2b for the player to inform the arbiter.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
True. And a heated conversation occurs between Ivanov and myself that disturbs everybody and brings the game into disrepute.
If you disagree with the arbiters decision you should take that up with the arbiter and not start an argument with your opponent who undoubtedly was happy with the arbiters decision.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
I believe their decision is wrong.
BAsed on Gary's evidence it would appear to be fine.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
It is quite clear that the clock should have nothing to do with the decision. Touch move should stand and furthermore, analysing the game is totally illegal when the game is in progress.
If Ivanov believed the game had ended especially due to the actions of the arbiter then he should not be penalised because of it.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
This decision is weak. furthermore it negates the responsibility of the players to play the game in accordance to the rules. I agree that there is such a thing as arbiters discretion and that Gary may be correct here if he so wishes to use that rule.
But as point of order on the rules this decision must be just wrong.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
I would like to make a point here. Imagine if this same scenario occurred in the Championship with both players short of time. Imagine if the person in Ivanovs position did exactly the same thing and let their time run out. I reckon that he would lose on time and the arbiter would then argue that this is CORRECT because his draw offer was invalid. You know it makes sense.
The position occurred for the third time once you made your 63rd move.
Ivanov then claimed a draw on his move as was his right in accordance with Article 9.2b.
He did not need to summon the arbiter.
You have not yet shown why his draw claim was invalid.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
As a side note, some will say that my actions are not in the spirit of the game because this is a Mickey mouse tournament and you can't expect a player of Nicks experience (over 15+ years) to understand the rules.
You are the one who does not appear to understand the rules by making claims such as:
1) ".. I played the last move, not my opponent. Therefore I do not see how my opponent can claim three fold repetition in the manner described."
2) " If we remember that my opponent did not notify the arbiter."
Bill Gletsos is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 10:28 PM   #78 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 653
Default

Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Why are you such a stupid person who displays time and time again the most incredible inability to understand the most basic of issues in chess?
I see you are talking about yourself again.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
er.O really?
Yes really.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
O really?
Yes really.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
They conspired to achieve the same result!
So they were out to get you.
Your paranoia is showing.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Don't be ridiculous. Of course it is relevant. If his age was unimportant then simply ask yourself at what point would it become important? 14,12,10 or 6 years old?
As I already said it depends how well they understand the laws of chess.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
No. Without wanting to make this sound an attack on James, which it is not, I wish to make this point. If James Morris was the most intelligent gifted intellectual on the planet with an IQ of 200 I would still argue that because he is a minor he should not be on the disputes committee. You would argue that age is not important, I disagree. Never shall the two viewpoints meet. End of story.
Agreed end of story as I do not agree with you.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Haha Get a clue about what really happened, you ignorant ratings abuser!
The only one being abusive as usual is you.
Bill Gletsos is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 10:32 PM   #79 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Firegoat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB
Posts: 1,924
ICC Handle: guest
Default

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
I see you are talking about yourself again.
Yes really.
Yes really.
So they were out to get you.
Your paranoia is showing.
As I already said it depends how well they understand the laws of chess.
Agreed end of story as I do not agree with you.
The only one being abusive as usual is you.
Bill Gletsos is wrong.
There was no correct draw claim.
Prove there was a 'correct' draw claim or simply be quiet.

cheers,
__________________
"...What I meant?

Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public.

What they meant?

Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic


Firegoat7 is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 10:35 PM   #80 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 20
Default

the b pawn was poisoned again ,good trap nick very deep.
bobby1972 is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 10:42 PM   #81 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Firegoat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB
Posts: 1,924
ICC Handle: guest
Default

Originally Posted by bobby1972 View Post
the b pawn was poisoned again ,good trap nick very deep.
Yeah shocker by me. But I was in bad time trouble and to be honest, had gone wrong much earlier.

cheers,
__________________
"...What I meant?

Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public.

What they meant?

Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic


Firegoat7 is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2009, 11:06 PM   #82 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 653
Default

Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Bill Gletsos is wrong.
There was no correct draw claim.
Prove there was a 'correct' draw claim or simply be quiet.

cheers,
I have shown why your claims to date that Ivanov's claim of a draw by triple repetition was incorrectly made are wrong.

You cannot claim that he was not permitted to make the claim since you made that last move and not him because he is allowed to claim under those circusmstances as per Article 9.2b.
You cannot claim he had to summon the arbiter as there is no such requirement under 9.2b.

Therefore the onus is on you to show why Ivanovs' claim was incorrect.

Last edited by Bill Gletsos : 10-12-2009 at 11:53 PM
Bill Gletsos is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 12:01 AM   #83 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 136
Default

David, why do you want to play on in that position? One does not have to be Kasparov to predict the final result of this game.

Secondly, Lets say the arbiter and/or the appeals comm. would come from Mars and force Ivanov to play Kg3 ...would you be happy with a victory of such kind?
MichaelBaron is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 12:09 AM   #84 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Firegoat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB
Posts: 1,924
ICC Handle: guest
Default

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post

Therefore the onus is on you to show why Ivanovs' claim was incorrect.
You must tell the arbiter you are claiming triple repetition.
__________________
"...What I meant?

Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public.

What they meant?

Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic


Firegoat7 is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 12:12 AM   #85 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 653
Default

Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
You must tell the arbiter you are claiming triple repetition.
Wrong.
There is no requirement under Article 9.2b to do so, only in 9.2a.
Article 9.2b applied in your situation, not 9.2a.
Bill Gletsos is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 12:14 AM   #86 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Firegoat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB
Posts: 1,924
ICC Handle: guest
Default

Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
David, why do you want to play on in that position?
Because I can correctly claim a draw at any moment, but my opponent might always make an error!

Originally Posted by MichaelBaron

One does not have to be Kasparov to predict the final result of this game.
All people do unpredictable things under pressure.
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
Secondly, Lets say the arbiter and/or the appeals comm. would come from Mars and force Ivanov to play Kg3 ...would you be happy with a victory of such kind?
Yes!

cheers,
__________________
"...What I meant?

Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public.

What they meant?

Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic


Firegoat7 is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 12:19 AM   #87 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Firegoat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB
Posts: 1,924
ICC Handle: guest
Default

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
Wrong.
There is no requirement under Article 9.2b to do so, only in 9.2a.
Article 9.2b applied in your situation, not 9.2a.
I don't agree. You still have to claim the draw in 9.2b. Do you have an example from real life that proves your particular interpretation?

cheers,
__________________
"...What I meant?

Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public.

What they meant?

Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic


Firegoat7 is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 12:41 AM   #88 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Firegoat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB
Posts: 1,924
ICC Handle: guest
Default

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
Wrong.
There is no requirement under Article 9.2b to do so, only in 9.2a.
Article 9.2b applied in your situation, not 9.2a.
If you seriously believe that a player claiming a draw for triple repetition is under no obligation to get a ruling from an arbiter, then you must believe that as soon as Ivanov announces draw the game is over.
So the question then becomes how is the draw offer proven?
Utilising your ridiculous interpretation there is no need to prove the claim at all!!
Haha It is a draw the player said so!

You and Bonham need to join the real world

cheers,
__________________
"...What I meant?

Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public.

What they meant?

Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic


Firegoat7 is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 12:43 AM   #89 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 653
Default

Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
I don't agree. You still have to claim the draw in 9.2b.
Of course you must actually voice the claim but it does not require the arbiter. The claim can be made directly to the opponent.
Originally Posted by Firegoat7 View Post
Do you have an example from real life that proves your particular interpretation?
I have seen it happen many times.

1) Player A makes a move that thats the position for the third time.
2) Player B before touching a piece claims the triple rep.
3) Player A & B shake hands and sign their scoresheets and take them to the officials table and pass them to the arbiter.

Only if Player A does not accept the claim is correct or believes that player B did not follow the correct procedure does the arbiter need to get involved.

In the above scenario if Player A believes that Player B's claim is incorrect or not done in the correct manner then he should inform the player of that fact and then either player A or Player B could stop the clock and summon the arbiter.

It is quite clear in the circumstances that Ivanov could legally claim triple rep after your 63rd move directly to you in accordance with Article 9.2b.

You should have just acknowledged that his triple rep claim was valid.

It appears that your lack of knowledge of the rules led you to reject his claim believing that he could not make that claim since you made the last move or that his claim had to go via the arbiter. Both of these beliefs on your part are wrong.
Bill Gletsos is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2009, 01:07 AM   #90 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Firegoat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB
Posts: 1,924
ICC Handle: guest
Default

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
Of course you must actually voice the claim but it does not require the arbiter. The claim can be made directly to the opponent.
I have seen it happen many times.

1) Player A makes a move that thats the position for the third time.
2) Player B before touching a piece claims the triple rep.
3) Player A & B shake hands and sign their scoresheets and take them to the officials table and pass them to the arbiter.

Only if Player A does not accept the claim is correct or believes that player B did not follow the correct procedure does the arbiter need to get involved.

In the above scenario if Player A believes that Player B's claim is incorrect or not done in the correct manner then he should inform the player of that fact and then either player A or Player B could stop the clock and summon the arbiter.

It is quite clear in the circumstances that Ivanov could legally claim triple rep after your 63rd move directly to you in accordance with Article 9.2b.

You should have just acknowledged that his triple rep claim was valid.

It appears that your lack of knowledge of the rules led you to reject his claim believing that he could not make that claim since you made the last move or that his claim had to go via the arbiter. Both of these beliefs on your part are wrong.
What a crock!
All you are discribing is an agreed draw.
In your ad hoc example, Player A is under no obligation to do anything! Haha
Nevertheless, Ivanov never even reached step 2.
When someone says "Draw" it can mean absolutely anything.

The problem with you Gletsos is that it still hasn't dawned on you that
Ivanov never claimed triple repetition.
Furthermore, even if he had I could have simply ignored him. A player, especially one in time trouble, is under no obligation to prove his opponents draw claim. That is the job of the arbiter!

I have highlighted that crap you posted in bold writing. It is wrong. Please take some time to think about why it is complete nonsense.

cheers,
__________________
"...What I meant?

Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public.

What they meant?

Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic


Firegoat7 is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Go Back   OzChess - Australia's Chess Forum > Australian Chess and General Chess Topics > Chess Tournaments in Australia

LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.ozchess.com.au/chess-tournaments-australia/1172-2009-victorian-championships.html
Posted By For Type Date
Chess Rules This thread Refback 10-14-2009 10:47 PM

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:



All times are GMT +11. The time now is 11:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2010 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

The views and opinions expressed in posts on this site are exclusively those of the member who made them, and do not represent the views or opinions of OzChess or OzChess's owners. OzChess does not endorse any post, and makes no representations about the truth or accuracy of any matter contained in any post made by members of this site.