Go Back   OzChess - Australia's Chess Forum > Chess (Games, Analysis, Playing Situations, and Related) > Chess Software, Products & Computer Chess
Connect with Facebook

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 12-07-2008, 05:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
Member
 
Herbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Geelong
Posts: 58
Default Detrimental Computer Use

I have a chess computer program and for a while I used it to train for chess tournaments. I am not sure it was ever helpful in that regard. Today everyone seems to be all Fritzed out and instead of analyzing chess problems for themselves they seem to just put the problem in Fritz and that is the end of thinking. If Fritz says move the bishop here or the queen there, then that is considered like being what God says. No one questions it, that is my point!
Herbert is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 05:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
Tin Cup Champ 2004
 
Just2Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cairns
Posts: 6,233
ICC Handle: Advantage
FICS Handle: Advantage
Default

Originally Posted by Herbert View Post
I have a chess computer program and for a while I used it to train for chess tournaments. I am not sure it was ever helpful in that regard. Today everyone seems to be all Fritzed out and instead of analyzing chess problems for themselves they seem to just put the problem in Fritz and that is the end of thinking. If Fritz says move the bishop here or the queen there, then that is considered like being what God says. No one questions it, that is my point!
You are not the first person to draw that conclusion Herbert. Welcome to OzChess.

Best Regards,

AO
__________________
.
"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing."

~ Isaiah Berlin ~
Just2Good is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2008, 03:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Noddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toyland
Posts: 256
Default

Originally Posted by Herbert View Post
I have a chess computer program and for a while I used it to train for chess tournaments. I am not sure it was ever helpful in that regard. Today everyone seems to be all Fritzed out and instead of analyzing chess problems for themselves they seem to just put the problem in Fritz and that is the end of thinking. If Fritz says move the bishop here or the queen there, then that is considered like being what God says. No one questions it, that is my point!
Fritzed out??? LOL, nice chess lingo bro.
Noddy is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 05:27 PM   #4 (permalink)
I like chess!
 
LearningChess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 32
Default

Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
Fritzed out??? LOL, nice chess lingo bro.
I am gonna use that as an insult to some of my friends who play blitz with me! Just for fun
LearningChess is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 12:47 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Cephus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New Caprica
Posts: 102
Default

Why is it necessary to insult your friends?
Cephus is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2008, 11:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 23
Default computer analysis

Originally Posted by Herbert View Post
I have a chess computer program and for a while I used it to train for chess tournaments. I am not sure it was ever helpful in that regard. Today everyone seems to be all Fritzed out and instead of analyzing chess problems for themselves they seem to just put the problem in Fritz and that is the end of thinking. If Fritz says move the bishop here or the queen there, then that is considered like being what God says. No one questions it, that is my point!
Well I have been using the multi processor version of Rybka tonight while analyzing an antidote to a line that was giving me problems. In several of the positions that arose I am going to have to ask a strong endgame player as to who is better in the positions that arise.

The machines are very effective at finding tactical solutions but can struggle in quiescent positions. I save all my analysis for future use.

There are some good uses for computer programs

1) set up the position where the computer has a lone king and you have a king knight and bishop. You should be able to learn how to do it in a few hours.

2) let the machine have king and rook versus your king rook and pawn. If the computer can find the draw then reverse the situation and see if you can do it.
superfly is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 05:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Ruy Lopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 24
Default

Originally Posted by superfly View Post
Well I have been using the multi processor version of Rybka tonight while analyzing an antidote to a line that was giving me problems. In several of the positions that arose I am going to have to ask a strong endgame player as to who is better in the positions that arise.

The machines are very effective at finding tactical solutions but can struggle in quiescent positions. I save all my analysis for future use.

There are some good uses for computer programs

1) set up the position where the computer has a lone king and you have a king knight and bishop. You should be able to learn how to do it in a few hours.

2) let the machine have king and rook versus your king rook and pawn. If the computer can find the draw then reverse the situation and see if you can do it.
I would have thought endgames would be one of the best uses for computers because usually those games come down to just one or two moves, like when you are in a pawn race a computer should be able to calculate who will promote first and therefore win.

Superfly, what is your version of Rybka rated?
Ruy Lopez is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2009, 06:38 AM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
Dulce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 76
Default

i find that computer simulations have an AI that can't really replicate human behavior. The difficult ratings are innacurate as to what you would normally find in a human opponent. Although i think the scenario based games recommended above are perfect!
Dulce is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2009, 01:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Simon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 182
Default

Originally Posted by Dulce View Post
i find that computer simulations have an AI that can't really replicate human behavior. The difficult ratings are innacurate as to what you would normally find in a human opponent. Although i think the scenario based games recommended above are perfect!
There is a bit of hit and miss regarding finding the best computer chess software. I notice that some are really quite advanced, too advanced for my liking. I tend to like the strong but simply programs like Fritz.
Simon is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 03:50 AM   #10 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Default

Engines make you lazy.

Some time back I decided to experiment playing “enhanced chess” (a polite term for using an engine) on a site that allows their use. As recommended by players experienced in such matters I used two engines. Positions where the two engines listed several moves all closely evaluated were quite common. In those cases I was on my own…and usually played the wrong move (no surprise!). Top players are able to steer the game into lines where computers do not play well but most players simply select whatever their engine’s first choice is. I did not have the patience to let an engine run overnight and am not good enough to steer the game into positions where engines don’t play well so I was one of those guys who ended up just letting the engine play the game for me. The whole experiment was a flop… boring and uninspiring.

Was it detrimental to my play? I think so because about halfway through the two tournaments I found that in those situations where there was no clear cut choice I was too lazy to give it much thought and just picked a move. It’s my belief most people who use engines in CC play or use them for analysis without putting in any effort will reach a point where they cease to think for themselves and just rely on whatever the engine says.

Unfortunately for some reason that attitude spilled over into my “real” CC games and resulted in my putting little effort into them. I’m not sure why that was so but was hit with the realization I had become mentally lazy even when not using an engine!
JacksonWShowalter is offline  

Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 12:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
Tin Cup Champ 2004
 
Just2Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cairns
Posts: 6,233
ICC Handle: Advantage
FICS Handle: Advantage
Default

Originally Posted by JacksonWShowalter View Post
Engines make you lazy.

Some time back I decided to experiment playing “enhanced chess” (a polite term for using an engine) on a site that allows their use. As recommended by players experienced in such matters I used two engines. Positions where the two engines listed several moves all closely evaluated were quite common. In those cases I was on my own…and usually played the wrong move (no surprise!). Top players are able to steer the game into lines where computers do not play well but most players simply select whatever their engine’s first choice is. I did not have the patience to let an engine run overnight and am not good enough to steer the game into positions where engines don’t play well so I was one of those guys who ended up just letting the engine play the game for me. The whole experiment was a flop… boring and uninspiring.

Was it detrimental to my play? I think so because about halfway through the two tournaments I found that in those situations where there was no clear cut choice I was too lazy to give it much thought and just picked a move. It’s my belief most people who use engines in CC play or use them for analysis without putting in any effort will reach a point where they cease to think for themselves and just rely on whatever the engine says.

Unfortunately for some reason that attitude spilled over into my “real” CC games and resulted in my putting little effort into them. I’m not sure why that was so but was hit with the realization I had become mentally lazy even when not using an engine!
Excellent Post Jackson!

I agree with you a lot.

However, probably the only area I disagree with you is this. I have found in blitz chess if you use a computer, this can actually improve your game when you do not use a computer. That said I never use a computer when playing a human opponent, only when playing a computer program.
__________________
.
"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing."

~ Isaiah Berlin ~
Just2Good is offline  

Users Flag!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Go Back   OzChess - Australia's Chess Forum > Chess (Games, Analysis, Playing Situations, and Related) > Chess Software, Products & Computer Chess


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:



All times are GMT +11. The time now is 10:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2010 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

The views and opinions expressed in posts on this site are exclusively those of the member who made them, and do not represent the views or opinions of OzChess or OzChess's owners. OzChess does not endorse any post, and makes no representations about the truth or accuracy of any matter contained in any post made by members of this site.