Blitz Time versus Mate Decision - OzChess

**Firegoat7** · 10-21-2011, 05:18 PM

Hi,

Opinions?

Regulation Blitz rules are in force.

White picks up a rook and is about to play mate in one. Before placing their piece on the mating square, Black announces time during the move. White finishes the move and the blitz clock shows that Whites time flag has fallen. Black has sufficient material to check mate. Black still has time left and the clock has not been stopped by either player.

Ruling?

**The Seeing** · 10-21-2011, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Firegoat7

Hi,

Opinions?

Regulation Blitz rules are in force.

White picks up a rook and is about to play mate in one. Before placing their piece on the mating square, Black announces time during the move. White finishes the move and the blitz clock shows that Whites time flag has fallen. Black has sufficient material to check mate. Black still has time left and the clock has not been stopped by either player.

Ruling?

0 - 1

**Jaydon** · 10-22-2011, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by The Seeing

0 - 1

I agree

**jhughes** · 11-02-2011, 06:11 PM

Assuming the flag had fallen, and that the player's claim was indeed correct, then of course black is the winner of the game, as it was lost by the white player before they were able to play checkmate, as consistent with Fide Law.

Code:

From the Fide Handbook
"6.8 
A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.
6.9
Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

Conversely, if the white player still had 1 or 2 seconds left (and black claimed the flag in order to distract the white player so that they would flag before checkmating) then the black player would incur a severe penalty, as it is incorrect claim of a win, Fide prescribe a three minute penalty for incorrect claiming of a draw (as per article 9.5.b), but I suspect that incorrect claiming of a win would be more severe, I personally would likely incur a 5 minute penalty, but the Fide Handbook gives no suggestion, and I am sure that different arbiters would incur different penalties.

**Blake7** · 11-02-2011, 08:36 PM

Black wins

**Firegoat7** · 11-02-2011, 11:06 PM

Hi,

I think everybody who thinks that Black automatically wins is wrong.

Originally Posted by Fide rules

1. The flag is considered to have fallen when a player has made a valid claim to that effect. The arbiter shall refrain from signalling a flag fall, but he may do so if both flags have fallen.
2. To claim a win on time, the claimant must stop both clocks and notify the arbiter. For the claim to be successful, the claimant’s flag must remain up and his opponent’s flag down after the clocks have been stopped.

I suggest that if Black does not stop the clocks then White has the right to complete their move. Announcing Time is not a valid claim in my opinion. In fact, should Black not be speaking at all since the claim may be wrong. Therefore Black did not make a valid claim on time.

Win for White if they make the move before BOTH clocks are stopped!

**The Seeing** · 11-02-2011, 11:43 PM

If Black shouts "TIME" before White has completed their move but white mates before black can stop the clock , then i'd give the win to black because they were the first player , WITHIN THE TIME LIMITS , to justifiably claim such. I would have thought a verbal claim was enough in this instance without the requirement of stopping the clocks
Whether this is strictly legal as per the letter of the law i don't know .
FG'S Quote above would make it appear that it isn't . Unless someone can find a loophole !

**jhughes** · 11-03-2011, 06:45 AM

Probably should have noticed it was blitz shouldn't I?

**Kerry Stead** · 11-25-2011, 02:53 PM

1-0
Mate on the board ... ends the game.
How is an arbiter supposed to check if the flag fall claim is valid? Presumably he hears the shout of 'time', goes to the board ... and sees a checkmate on the board, so the clock becomes irrelevant.
Given that this is blitz, I'm assuming its not a case of someone picking up a rook, opponent claiming win on time & then player moving rook waits 10+ seconds to play the mate on the board ...

10-21-2011, 05:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Blitz Time versus Mate Decision Hi, Opinions? Regulation Blitz rules are in force. White picks up a rook and is about to play mate in one. Before placing their piece on the mating square, Black announces time during the move. White finishes the move and the blitz clock shows that Whites time flag has fallen. Black has sufficient material to check mate. Black still has time left and the clock has not been stopped by either player. Ruling? __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

10-21-2011, 05:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
The Seeing Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 263	Originally Posted by Firegoat7 Hi, Opinions? Regulation Blitz rules are in force. White picks up a rook and is about to play mate in one. Before placing their piece on the mating square, Black announces time during the move. White finishes the move and the blitz clock shows that Whites time flag has fallen. Black has sufficient material to check mate. Black still has time left and the clock has not been stopped by either player. Ruling? 0 - 1

10-22-2011, 04:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
Jaydon SCTC Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Queensland, Gold Coast Posts: 1,101 ICC Handle: Aussieboy007 FICS Handle: Bermusia	Originally Posted by The Seeing 0 - 1 I agree

11-02-2011, 06:11 PM	#4 (permalink)
jhughes Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 67	Assuming the flag had fallen, and that the player's claim was indeed correct, then of course black is the winner of the game, as it was lost by the white player before they were able to play checkmate, as consistent with Fide Law. Code: From the Fide Handbook "6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect. 6.9 Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves." Conversely, if the white player still had 1 or 2 seconds left (and black claimed the flag in order to distract the white player so that they would flag before checkmating) then the black player would incur a severe penalty, as it is incorrect claim of a win, Fide prescribe a three minute penalty for incorrect claiming of a draw (as per article 9.5.b), but I suspect that incorrect claiming of a win would be more severe, I personally would likely incur a 5 minute penalty, but the Fide Handbook gives no suggestion, and I am sure that different arbiters would incur different penalties.

11-02-2011, 11:06 PM	#6 (permalink)
Firegoat7 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Getting owned by White in the Dragon and trying to recover lost positions from shock paralysis OTB Posts: 2,044 ICC Handle: guest	Hi, I think everybody who thinks that Black automatically wins is wrong. Originally Posted by Fide rules 1. The flag is considered to have fallen when a player has made a *valid claim to that effect*. The arbiter shall refrain from signalling a flag fall, but he may do so if both flags have fallen. 2. To claim a win on time, the claimant must stop both clocks and notify the arbiter. For the claim to be successful, the claimant’s flag must remain up and his opponent’s flag down after the clocks have been stopped. I suggest that if Black does not stop the clocks then White has the right to complete their move. Announcing Time is not a valid claim in my opinion. In fact, should Black not be speaking at all since the claim may be wrong. Therefore Black did not make a valid claim on time. Win for White if they make the move before BOTH clocks are stopped! __________________ "...What I meant? Dear Mr Ian Rout (ACF news publisher) could you please put Ozchessforum in the next news letter! There is no reason to hide this forum from the Australian chess public. What they meant? Sorry, No english!- Amir Karibasic

11-02-2011, 08:36 PM	#5 (permalink)
Blake7 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 24	Black wins

11-02-2011, 11:43 PM	#7 (permalink)
The Seeing Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 263	Loophole Quest If Black shouts "TIME" before White has completed their move but white mates before black can stop the clock , then i'd give the win to black because they were the first player , WITHIN THE TIME LIMITS , to justifiably claim such. I would have thought a verbal claim was enough in this instance without the requirement of stopping the clocks Whether this is strictly legal as per the letter of the law i don't know . FG'S Quote above would make it appear that it isn't . Unless someone can find a loophole !

11-03-2011, 06:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
jhughes Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 67	Note to Self: Actually Read the Post Probably should have noticed it was blitz shouldn't I?

11-25-2011, 02:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
Kerry Stead Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 67	1-0 Mate on the board ... ends the game. How is an arbiter supposed to check if the flag fall claim is valid? Presumably he hears the shout of 'time', goes to the board ... and sees a checkmate on the board, so the clock becomes irrelevant. Given that this is blitz, I'm assuming its not a case of someone picking up a rook, opponent claiming win on time & then player moving rook waits 10+ seconds to play the mate on the board ...

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