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#16 (permalink) |
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Tin Cup Champ 2004
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 4,712
ICC Handle: Advantage
FICS Handle: Advantage
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Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Sounds like something Kevin would be interested in. Maybe he could apply these calculations to his snail collection.
__________________
. "He was a man, take him for all in all. I shall not look upon his like again." ~ Hamlet ~ |
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#17 (permalink) |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 23
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Originally Posted by Just2Good
I think the rule is actually very sensible. Before this rule came in, some players used to write down alternative moves for their next move and then mentally check through each alternative before deciding on their move. They then crossed out the alternatives on their scoresheet and finally played their move. They were therefore using their scoresheet as an aid to their thinking process.
There was nothing to stop players writing down not just possible moves, but also variations - they could always claim that they were just writing down a possible next move and made a mistake. I suppose it could be argued that the situation was equal for both players, but it goes against the principle that players should not use an aid to assist their thinking and also resulted in some very messy and often illegible scoresheets. |
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#18 (permalink) |
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Tin Cup Champ 2004
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 4,712
ICC Handle: Advantage
FICS Handle: Advantage
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC
Some very good points Ian. I think I will nominate your post for February's POTM. Well expressed arguments, and you raised issues I hadn't thought of before. Thank you.
__________________
. "He was a man, take him for all in all. I shall not look upon his like again." ~ Hamlet ~ |
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#19 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 603
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC
What you are describing was already against the laws of chess prior to the new 2005 law of chess requiring writing the move down after the move was played. As such the new law is irrelevant to the situation you describe.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC
This is against the laws of chess and has been for ages.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC
This claim that there was nothing to stop them acting like this is just rubbish.
Such behaviour has always been against the laws of chess. The player needs to just stop his clock and summon the arbiter and report the behaviour. Making notes etc during the game has always been against the Laws of Chess. |
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#20 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 603
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Originally Posted by Just2Good
Actually it is a pretty poor post as his points have nothing to do with the new 2005 law requiring the writing of the move after the move is made.
The situation he describes has always been against the laws of chess. |
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#21 (permalink) |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 23
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Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
I thank you for your comment, Bill. However, just because it was against the rules to use the scoresheet as an aid, does not mean that it was not used as such. In the distant past (the 1970s) some players used to write down a number of alternatives before deciding on a final move. None of those players, to my knowledge, were denounced for illegal behaviour. Presumably the laws have been refined over the years to outlaw this practice.
I do not know what the laws were before 2005 (having only returned to chess recently), however I assume that a move was not completed until a piece had been released onto a square. Therefore a player could write down a move and, before moving a piece, choose to change the written move any number of times before actually making the move on the board. The player would then have a list of alternative moves in front of them (albeit crossed out) before actually playing a move. This behaviour would have been considered illegal if done for the purpose of aiding thought, but presumably it would have required the arbiter to make a judgement that that was the purpose. This law makes it clear that the move must be written down after the move is completed on the board and avoids this situation. |
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#22 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 603
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC
Then that is not a problem with the rules as they were but the fault of the player for not raising the matter with the arbiter as the action was always illegal.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC
That behaviour has always been illegal even under the Laws of Chess in place during the 1970's as it is simply a case of making notes.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC
No that behaviour is equivalent to taking notes and is not permitted by the laws of chess.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC
That behaviour is clearly illegal and always has been.
But the previous behaviour you are describing has alway been illegal. Hence the current law has no bearing. |
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#23 (permalink) |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 23
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So, Bill, you are saying that once a player wrote down a move on their scoresheet they were not allowed to change it, because if they changed it that would be considered as making notes and therefore cheating?
There must have been an awful lot of perfectly completed scoresheets!
Last edited by Ian CCC : 02-15-2010 at 11:35 PM |
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#24 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 603
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC
I didnt say that.
You were referring to players writing down multiple moves including variations prior to making their actual move. This was clearly illegal. If a player wrote a single move, changed their mind crossed it out and actually played another move then this was generally considered acceptable provided the player only did this once or twice per game. If they did it on a regular basis then it was considered note taking. The change in the laws in 2005 to require the move be made before writing it down was done to remove this scenario. |
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#25 (permalink) |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 23
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Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
As I said, writing down alternative moves with the purpose of aiding their thinking was against the rules, but players may have done it in any case in the guise of changing their move. The change in laws prevents the situation of the arbiter being called in to make a judgement as to whether the player was acting illegally or not. The change in laws makes the situation clear, and so I applaud the change.
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#26 (permalink) |
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Tin Cup Champ 2004
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 4,712
ICC Handle: Advantage
FICS Handle: Advantage
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC
Exactly!
Try not to pay much attention to Bill, he doesn't seem to get on with many people here Ian.
__________________
. "He was a man, take him for all in all. I shall not look upon his like again." ~ Hamlet ~ |
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#27 (permalink) |
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Immoderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 1,605
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Making friends with people again, eh Bill. Try wagging your tail rather than crouching and growling.
BTW, does anyone here know what a good vet would charge for putting down a pitbull on crack?
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