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Old 02-01-2010, 06:33 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Calculations? You mean like integrating simultaneous trigonometric functions in eleven dimensions from first principles with inferred proofs? I don't need paper to to that - do you.
Sounds like something Kevin would be interested in. Maybe he could apply these calculations to his snail collection.
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Old 02-15-2010, 05:40 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Just2Good View Post
An interesting article on The Closet Grandmaster appeared recently:



Firstly, I agree with Amiel concerning this. I don't see how this practice is cheating as it offers nothing of value or benefit to your opponent nor to yourself. Its like saying drinking coffee during your game is cheating.

Maybe there is an argument that if your opponent sees you write down a move, he will then turn his mind to lines associated with that move - and then if you play something else his time has been wasted.

However, in regards to this I think that if someone is audacious enough to look at his opponent's score sheet during the game, then if he is lead astray in his thinking as a result it is his own fault.

Clearly an example of a rule that should be scrapped.

I think the rule is actually very sensible. Before this rule came in, some players used to write down alternative moves for their next move and then mentally check through each alternative before deciding on their move. They then crossed out the alternatives on their scoresheet and finally played their move. They were therefore using their scoresheet as an aid to their thinking process.

There was nothing to stop players writing down not just possible moves, but also variations - they could always claim that they were just writing down a possible next move and made a mistake.

I suppose it could be argued that the situation was equal for both players, but it goes against the principle that players should not use an aid to assist their thinking and also resulted in some very messy and often illegible scoresheets.
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Old 02-15-2010, 06:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
I think the rule is actually very sensible. Before this rule came in, some players used to write down alternative moves for their next move and then mentally check through each alternative before deciding on their move. They then crossed out the alternatives on their scoresheet and finally played their move. They were therefore using their scoresheet as an aid to their thinking process.

There was nothing to stop players writing down not just possible moves, but also variations - they could always claim that they were just writing down a possible next move and made a mistake.

I suppose it could be argued that the situation was equal for both players, but it goes against the principle that players should not use an aid to assist their thinking and also resulted in some very messy and often illegible scoresheets.
Some very good points Ian. I think I will nominate your post for February's POTM. Well expressed arguments, and you raised issues I hadn't thought of before. Thank you.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
I think the rule is actually very sensible. Before this rule came in, some players used to write down alternative moves for their next move and then mentally check through each alternative before deciding on their move.
What you are describing was already against the laws of chess prior to the new 2005 law of chess requiring writing the move down after the move was played. As such the new law is irrelevant to the situation you describe.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
They then crossed out the alternatives on their scoresheet and finally played their move. They were therefore using their scoresheet as an aid to their thinking process.
This is against the laws of chess and has been for ages.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
There was nothing to stop players writing down not just possible moves, but also variations - they could always claim that they were just writing down a possible next move and made a mistake.
This claim that there was nothing to stop them acting like this is just rubbish.
Such behaviour has always been against the laws of chess.
The player needs to just stop his clock and summon the arbiter and report the behaviour.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
I suppose it could be argued that the situation was equal for both players, but it goes against the principle that players should not use an aid to assist their thinking and also resulted in some very messy and often illegible scoresheets.
Making notes etc during the game has always been against the Laws of Chess.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Just2Good View Post
Some very good points Ian. I think I will nominate your post for February's POTM. Well expressed arguments, and you raised issues I hadn't thought of before. Thank you.
Actually it is a pretty poor post as his points have nothing to do with the new 2005 law requiring the writing of the move after the move is made.

The situation he describes has always been against the laws of chess.
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
Actually it is a pretty poor post as his points have nothing to do with the new 2005 law requiring the writing of the move after the move is made.

The situation he describes has always been against the laws of chess.
I thank you for your comment, Bill. However, just because it was against the rules to use the scoresheet as an aid, does not mean that it was not used as such. In the distant past (the 1970s) some players used to write down a number of alternatives before deciding on a final move. None of those players, to my knowledge, were denounced for illegal behaviour. Presumably the laws have been refined over the years to outlaw this practice.

I do not know what the laws were before 2005 (having only returned to chess recently), however I assume that a move was not completed until a piece had been released onto a square. Therefore a player could write down a move and, before moving a piece, choose to change the written move any number of times before actually making the move on the board. The player would then have a list of alternative moves in front of them (albeit crossed out) before actually playing a move. This behaviour would have been considered illegal if done for the purpose of aiding thought, but presumably it would have required the arbiter to make a judgement that that was the purpose.

This law makes it clear that the move must be written down after the move is completed on the board and avoids this situation.
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
I thank you for your comment, Bill. However, just because it was against the rules to use the scoresheet as an aid, does not mean that it was not used as such.
Then that is not a problem with the rules as they were but the fault of the player for not raising the matter with the arbiter as the action was always illegal.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
In the distant past (the 1970s) some players used to write down a number of alternatives before deciding on a final move. None of those players, to my knowledge, were denounced for illegal behaviour. Presumably the laws have been refined over the years to outlaw this practice.
That behaviour has always been illegal even under the Laws of Chess in place during the 1970's as it is simply a case of making notes.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
I do not know what the laws were before 2005 (having only returned to chess recently), however I assume that a move was not completed until a piece had been released onto a square. Therefore a player could write down a move and, before moving a piece, choose to change the written move any number of times before actually making the move on the board.
No that behaviour is equivalent to taking notes and is not permitted by the laws of chess.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
The player would then have a list of alternative moves in front of them (albeit crossed out) before actually playing a move. This behaviour would have been considered illegal if done for the purpose of aiding thought, but presumably it would have required the arbiter to make a judgement that that was the purpose.
That behaviour is clearly illegal and always has been.
Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
This law makes it clear that the move must be written down after the move is completed on the board and avoids this situation.
But the previous behaviour you are describing has alway been illegal. Hence the current law has no bearing.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:00 PM   #23 (permalink)
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So, Bill, you are saying that once a player wrote down a move on their scoresheet they were not allowed to change it, because if they changed it that would be considered as making notes and therefore cheating?

There must have been an awful lot of perfectly completed scoresheets!

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Old 02-15-2010, 11:44 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
So, Bill, you are saying that once a player wrote down a move on their scoresheet they were not allowed to change it, because if they changed it that would be considered as making notes and therefore cheating?
I didnt say that.
You were referring to players writing down multiple moves including variations prior to making their actual move.
This was clearly illegal.

If a player wrote a single move, changed their mind crossed it out and actually played another move then this was generally considered acceptable provided the player only did this once or twice per game. If they did it on a regular basis then it was considered note taking.

The change in the laws in 2005 to require the move be made before writing it down was done to remove this scenario.
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:08 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
I didnt say that.
You were referring to players writing down multiple moves including variations prior to making their actual move.
This was clearly illegal.

If a player wrote a single move, changed their mind crossed it out and actually played another move then this was generally considered acceptable provided the player only did this once or twice per game. If they did it on a regular basis then it was considered note taking.

The change in the laws in 2005 to require the move be made before writing it down was done to remove this scenario.
As I said, writing down alternative moves with the purpose of aiding their thinking was against the rules, but players may have done it in any case in the guise of changing their move. The change in laws prevents the situation of the arbiter being called in to make a judgement as to whether the player was acting illegally or not. The change in laws makes the situation clear, and so I applaud the change.
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Old 02-16-2010, 03:10 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
I thank you for your comment, Bill. However, just because it was against the rules to use the scoresheet as an aid, does not mean that it was not used as such.
Exactly!

Try not to pay much attention to Bill, he doesn't seem to get on with many people here Ian.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:37 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
Actually it is a pretty poor post ...
Making friends with people again, eh Bill. Try wagging your tail rather than crouching and growling.

BTW, does anyone here know what a good vet would charge for putting down a pitbull on crack?
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:53 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Is there a law about placing a mark next to a move?
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:57 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Heartbreak Kid View Post
Is there a law about placing a mark next to a move?

Article 12.4 says:

The scoresheet shall be used only for recording the moves, the times of the clocks, the offers of a draw, and matters relating to a claim and other relevant data.
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:57 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ian CCC View Post
Article 12.4 says:

The scoresheet shall be used only for recording the moves, the times of the clocks, the offers of a draw, and matters relating to a claim and other relevant data.
Thanks Ian.
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