Australian Junior Chess League - Page 4 - OzChess

**Iconoclast** · 09-02-2010, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by JaK

Let's face it, the way kids are coached and disciplined by programs offered in Victoria, (I don't know about other States) contributes to their speedy improvement.

Yes, Using computers to improve your chess strength is like using steroids to increase your physical strength.

Chess books are bad enough, but computers are further wrecking chess as a human game.

**Axiom** · 09-02-2010, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Yes, Using computers to improve your chess strength is like using steroids to increase your physical strength.

Chess books are bad enough, but computers are further wrecking chess as a human game.

hogwash

you beat overly computer conditioned players with creativity early in the opening .
if you play normal lines then as always you'll be up against the booked up player , whether booked by book or by computer .

Human players are still as restricted by their memory capacity with or without the computer conditioning .

I recommend practice against them ,...it certainly improves ones game .

**JaK** · 09-02-2010, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Yes, Using computers to improve your chess strength is like using steroids to increase your physical strength.

Chess books are bad enough, but computers are further wrecking chess as a human game.

Chillax man! Someone has to remind you that we now live in the 21st C. Your attitude is very much 19th C stuff. Do you suggest that our junior champs are just computer geeks who do nothing else than memorising engine lines? Have you ever watched GM Johansen coaching the kids at BHCC? You will be amazed by the stuff they study and the positions they have to work out then and there! On the black board! IN FRIGGING CLASS! No computers involved! Get over it!

**Just2Good** · 09-02-2010, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Chess books are bad enough, but computers are further wrecking chess as a human game.

Are you serious?

**Noddy** · 09-02-2010, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by JaK

Chillax man! Someone has to remind you that we now live in the 21st C. Your attitude is very much 19th C stuff. Do you suggest that our junior champs are just computer geeks who do nothing else than memorising engine lines? Have you ever watched GM Johansen coaching the kids at BHCC? You will be amazed by the stuff they study and the positions they have to work out then and there! On the black board! IN FRIGGING CLASS! No computers involved! Get over it!

So they have to use their minds and not a computer? Thats so unfair!

**Iconoclast** · 09-11-2010, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by JaK

Someone has to remind you that we now live in the 21st C. Your attitude is very much 19th C stuff.

I don't care what year it is. I love meat and hate tofu, I like live music more than recordings, sex beats mastabation, and I like human competitions to be between humans. I do not want sprinters doing steroids or bridge players using programable calculators. Computers have changed the nature of the opening in chess.

Do you suggest that our junior champs are just computer geeks who do nothing else than memorising engine lines?

No

Have you ever watched GM Johansen coaching the kids at BHCC?

No, I live in NSW.

You will be amazed by the stuff they study and the positions they have to work out then and there! On the black board! IN FRIGGING CLASS! No computers involved! Get over it!

Good! That is good. I have no issue with middle and endgames and computers. I have an issue with the opening being driven by deep lines that make the middle game skills less important. I mean, getting a pawn advantage in the opening leads to a different win/loss ratio than if deep lines were not quite as deep.

**JaK** · 09-11-2010, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

... Good! That is good. I have no issue with middle and endgames and computers. I have an issue with the opening being driven by deep lines that make the middle game skills less important. I mean, getting a pawn advantage in the opening leads to a different win/loss ratio than if deep lines were not quite as deep.

I have seen Darryl Johansen, Grant Szuveges, Michael Baron, Bill Jordan and Carl Gorka just to name a few, teaching chess to (and not so) juniors. Believe you me, computers have no place in their teachings (apart from maybe data bases to check on their future opponents' styles etc).

Their approach is based upon actual interactive action OTB, no computer crap involved, the kids work hard, sweat it out, whinge, joke, swear (not openly) enjoy it like real kids, believe me. They also do sports, they have a life. Their parents are great people, you 'd love the whole thing! Nothing virtual here, all real!

Originally Posted by Icon

I don't care what year it is.

Sometimes it helps if you don't wanna miss the writings on the walls

Originally Posted by Icon

I love meat and hate tofu,

With you on that

Originally Posted by Icon

I like live music more than recordings,

What about live recordings?

Originally Posted by Icaon

sex beats mastabation,

Not always if you asked me, although I have to admit with sex you meet new people!

Originally Posted by Icon

and I like human competitions to be between humans.

I agree, you guys in NSW tend to deal very swiftly with the offenders

Originally Posted by Icon

I do not want sprinters doing steroids

I agree, provided you find one who doesn't use them

Originally Posted by Icon

Computers have changed the nature of the opening in chess.

So have calculators in Maths. I remember that sadist mathematician who made me construct logarithm, algorithm and trigonometry tables in detention, I hated the frigging bastard. He was violent too! I 'd prefer computers to him anytime!

**Iconoclast** · 09-11-2010, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by JaK

Their approach is based upon actual interactive action OTB, no computer crap involved, the kids work hard, sweat it out, whinge, joke, swear (not openly) enjoy it like real kids, believe me. They also do sports, they have a life. Their parents are great people, you 'd love the whole thing! Nothing virtual here, all real!

Sounds good. Should be more of it.

So have calculators in Maths.

Calculators are not for maths, they are for arithmetic. Real maths takes skills and concentration. But back to chess ... Why do you think so many people (but not enough yet) are Fischer Random fans?

**Simon** · 09-12-2010, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by JaK

I have seen Darryl Johansen, Grant Szuveges, Michael Baron, Bill Jordan and Carl Gorka just to name a few, teaching chess to (and not so) juniors. Believe you me, computers have no place in their teachings (apart from maybe data bases to check on their future opponents' styles etc).

Their approach is based upon actual interactive action OTB, no computer crap involved, the kids work hard, sweat it out, whinge, joke, swear (not openly) enjoy it like real kids, believe me. They also do sports, they have a life. Their parents are great people, you 'd love the whole thing! Nothing virtual here, all real!

There is nothing wrong with using computers to train kids and adults to improving their chess, so long as they do not use any aids during rated games. If anything the readily available computer programs have levelled the playing field so that now it is not just the rich kids who can afford a chess coach who excel. Now, a kid from a not so well off family can pay $100 buy Fritz, and if he or she puts the time in, they can now compete with the human coached snobby kids.

**JaK** · 09-12-2010, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

There is nothing wrong with using computers to train kids and adults to improving their chess, so long as they do not use any aids during rated games. If anything the readily available computer programs have levelled the playing field so that now it is not just the rich kids who can afford a chess coach who excel. Now, a kid from a not so well off family can pay $100 buy Fritz, and if he or she puts the time in, they can now compete with the human coached snobby kids.

Hi Alex, I don't know why you 're asking me all this, perhaps you should read this again starting a few posts back!

**JaK** · 09-12-2010, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Icon

Sounds good. Should be more of it.

I agree, I think they are doing well! I hope they do better in future.

Originally Posted by Icon

Calculators are not for maths, they are for arithmetic.

Mate, how long has it been since you 've done serious maths? Calculators can do advanced Calculus stuff these days!!!
There some online ones, have a look here
Calculus Calculators

Originally Posted by Icon

Real maths takes skills and concentration.

Undoubtedly!

Originally Posted by Icon

But back to chess ... Why do you think so many people (but not enough yet) are Fischer Random fans?

To avoid bookish variations not necessarily prepared with computer help though. Personally, I love that variant and it's the only one I would play! I played in one tournament at Box Hill Chess Club 2-3 years ago and had great time. I will tell Grant Szuveges to have it in mind to organise something at the Melbourne Chess Club!

**Just2Good** · 09-12-2010, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by JaK

Hi Alex, I don't know why you 're asking me all this, perhaps you should read this again starting a few posts back!

Hi Jak

It seems you've either misquoted or you believe Kevin's nonsense that most members on OzChess are really my hydra's. Either way I'm not bothered. I'm past the point of trying to convince people, and even more than that, I am past the point of caring. Yes, Bill is correct, we use a mod to adjust stats on the homepage, and sometimes users are selected randomly and included in those stats. But that doesn't mean those selected are hydra's.

**JaK** · 09-12-2010, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Comeback Kid

Hi Jak

It seems you've either misquoted or you believe Kevin's nonsense that most members on OzChess are really my hydra's. Either way I'm not bothered. I'm past the point of trying to convince people, and even more than that, I am past the point of caring. Yes, Bill is correct, we use a mod to adjust stats on the homepage, and sometimes users are selected randomly and included in those stats. But that doesn't mean those selected are hydra's.

Hi Alex, It was definitely the former case!
Apologies to you and Simon!
Misquotation owed to the fact that I was reading your earlier note on BHCC's prediction of Laurence's winning the tournament; additionally (as I am sure you 've noticed) the above was posted very early in this morning before I went fishing - early hour after a long night out adding to the confusion.
In conclusion, I also believe that you must have noticed that I am a very direct person when I address others in the forums.
I hope this clarifies things, if further explanation is needed please let me know!
Cheers

**Bill Gletsos** · 09-12-2010, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Comeback Kid

It seems you've either misquoted or you believe Kevin's nonsense that most members on OzChess are really my hydra's. Either way I'm not bothered. I'm past the point of trying to convince people, and even more than that, I am past the point of caring.

Unfortunately you are not past the point of using hydras.

Originally Posted by Comeback Kid

Yes, Bill is correct, we use a mod to adjust stats on the homepage, and sometimes users are selected randomly and included in those stats.

Yes you are currently misrepresenting the actual number of online users via your "fake user" modification by showing an additional 11 members and 50 guests who are actually not online at all.

Originally Posted by Comeback Kid

But that doesn't mean those selected are hydra's.

True it does not mean they are all hydras but given the additional 11 names are randomly selected by your "fake user" modification then some of those selected could be hydras.

**Admin** · 09-12-2010, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos

Unfortunately you are not past the point of using hydras.
Yes you are currently misrepresenting the actual number of online users via your "fake user" modification by showing an additional 11 members and 50 guests who are actually not online at all.
True it does not mean they are all hydras but given the additional 11 names are randomly selected by your "fake user" modification then some of those selected could be hydras.

Bill, go jump in a lake. I don't have to justify myself to you.

Spoiler for For Bill Gletsos:

09-02-2010, 12:05 AM	#46 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by JaK Let's face it, the way kids are coached and disciplined by programs offered in Victoria, (I don't know about other States) contributes to their speedy improvement. Yes, Using computers to improve your chess strength is like using steroids to increase your physical strength. Chess books are bad enough, but computers are further wrecking chess as a human game. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

09-02-2010, 12:20 AM	#47 (permalink)
Axiom Reality Analyst Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,498	Environmental Resource Originally Posted by Iconoclast Yes, Using computers to improve your chess strength is like using steroids to increase your physical strength. Chess books are bad enough, but computers are further wrecking chess as a human game. hogwash you beat overly computer conditioned players with creativity early in the opening . if you play normal lines then as always you'll be up against the booked up player , whether booked by book or by computer . Human players are still as restricted by their memory capacity with or without the computer conditioning . I recommend practice against them ,...it certainly improves ones game . __________________ "Sometimes the obligation of the intelligent is to restate the obvious. None more important than emphatically stating that there is a : ' Naked Emperor Elephant in the Room' " Axiom

09-02-2010, 05:37 AM	#48 (permalink)
JaK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 391	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Yes, Using computers to improve your chess strength is like using steroids to increase your physical strength. Chess books are bad enough, but computers are further wrecking chess as a human game. Chillax man! Someone has to remind you that we now live in the 21st C. Your attitude is very much 19th C stuff. Do you suggest that our junior champs are just computer geeks who do nothing else than memorising engine lines? Have you ever watched GM Johansen coaching the kids at BHCC? You will be amazed by the stuff they study and the positions they have to work out then and there! On the black board! IN FRIGGING CLASS! No computers involved! Get over it! Last edited by JaK : 09-02-2010 at 06:50 AM

09-02-2010, 07:48 AM	#49 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Chess books are bad enough, but computers are further wrecking chess as a human game. Are you serious? __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

09-02-2010, 10:51 AM	#50 (permalink)
Noddy Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Toyland Posts: 255	Originally Posted by JaK Chillax man! Someone has to remind you that we now live in the 21st C. Your attitude is very much 19th C stuff. Do you suggest that our junior champs are just computer geeks who do nothing else than memorising engine lines? Have you ever watched GM Johansen coaching the kids at BHCC? You will be amazed by the stuff they study and the positions they have to work out then and there! On the black board! IN FRIGGING CLASS! No computers involved! Get over it! So they have to use their minds and not a computer? Thats so unfair! __________________ Make Way for Noddy.

09-11-2010, 03:42 PM	#51 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by JaK Someone has to remind you that we now live in the 21st C. Your attitude is very much 19th C stuff. I don't care what year it is. I love meat and hate tofu, I like live music more than recordings, sex beats mastabation, and I like human competitions to be between humans. I do not want sprinters doing steroids or bridge players using programable calculators. Computers have changed the nature of the opening in chess. Do you suggest that our junior champs are just computer geeks who do nothing else than memorising engine lines? No Have you ever watched GM Johansen coaching the kids at BHCC? No, I live in NSW. You will be amazed by the stuff they study and the positions they have to work out then and there! On the black board! IN FRIGGING CLASS! No computers involved! Get over it! Good! That is good. I have no issue with middle and endgames and computers. I have an issue with the opening being driven by deep lines that make the middle game skills less important. I mean, getting a pawn advantage in the opening leads to a different win/loss ratio than if deep lines were not quite as deep. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

09-11-2010, 05:02 PM	#52 (permalink)
JaK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 391	Originally Posted by Iconoclast ... Good! That is good. I have no issue with middle and endgames and computers. I have an issue with the opening being driven by deep lines that make the middle game skills less important. I mean, getting a pawn advantage in the opening leads to a different win/loss ratio than if deep lines were not quite as deep. I have seen Darryl Johansen, Grant Szuveges, Michael Baron, Bill Jordan and Carl Gorka just to name a few, teaching chess to (and not so) juniors. Believe you me, computers have no place in their teachings (apart from maybe data bases to check on their future opponents' styles etc). Their approach is based upon actual interactive action OTB, no computer crap involved, the kids work hard, sweat it out, whinge, joke, swear (not openly) enjoy it like real kids, believe me. They also do sports, they have a life. Their parents are great people, you 'd love the whole thing! Nothing virtual here, all real! Originally Posted by Icon I don't care what year it is. Sometimes it helps if you don't wanna miss the writings on the walls Originally Posted by Icon I love meat and hate tofu, With you on that Originally Posted by Icon I like live music more than recordings, What about live recordings? Originally Posted by Icaon sex beats mastabation, Not always if you asked me, although I have to admit with sex you meet new people! Originally Posted by Icon and I like human competitions to be between humans. I agree, you guys in NSW tend to deal very swiftly with the offenders Originally Posted by Icon I do not want sprinters doing steroids I agree, provided you find one who doesn't use them Originally Posted by Icon Computers have changed the nature of the opening in chess. So have calculators in Maths. I remember that sadist mathematician who made me construct logarithm, algorithm and trigonometry tables in detention, I hated the frigging bastard. He was violent too! I 'd prefer computers to him anytime! Last edited by JaK : 09-11-2010 at 05:14 PM

09-11-2010, 11:04 PM	#53 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by JaK Their approach is based upon actual interactive action OTB, no computer crap involved, the kids work hard, sweat it out, whinge, joke, swear (not openly) enjoy it like real kids, believe me. They also do sports, they have a life. Their parents are great people, you 'd love the whole thing! Nothing virtual here, all real! Sounds good. Should be more of it. So have calculators in Maths. Calculators are not for maths, they are for arithmetic. Real maths takes skills and concentration. But back to chess ... Why do you think so many people (but not enough yet) are Fischer Random fans? __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

09-12-2010, 01:33 AM	#54 (permalink)
Simon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 162	Originally Posted by JaK I have seen Darryl Johansen, Grant Szuveges, Michael Baron, Bill Jordan and Carl Gorka just to name a few, teaching chess to (and not so) juniors. Believe you me, computers have no place in their teachings (apart from maybe data bases to check on their future opponents' styles etc). Their approach is based upon actual interactive action OTB, no computer crap involved, the kids work hard, sweat it out, whinge, joke, swear (not openly) enjoy it like real kids, believe me. They also do sports, they have a life. Their parents are great people, you 'd love the whole thing! Nothing virtual here, all real! There is nothing wrong with using computers to train kids and adults to improving their chess, so long as they do not use any aids during rated games. If anything the readily available computer programs have levelled the playing field so that now it is not just the rich kids who can afford a chess coach who excel. Now, a kid from a not so well off family can pay $100 buy Fritz, and if he or she puts the time in, they can now compete with the human coached snobby kids.

09-12-2010, 05:41 AM	#55 (permalink)
JaK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 391	Originally Posted by Simon There is nothing wrong with using computers to train kids and adults to improving their chess, so long as they do not use any aids during rated games. If anything the readily available computer programs have levelled the playing field so that now it is not just the rich kids who can afford a chess coach who excel. Now, a kid from a not so well off family can pay $100 buy Fritz, and if he or she puts the time in, they can now compete with the human coached snobby kids. Hi Alex, I don't know why you 're asking me all this, perhaps you should read this again starting a few posts back!

09-12-2010, 05:54 AM	#56 (permalink)
JaK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 391	Originally Posted by Icon Sounds good. Should be more of it. I agree, I think they are doing well! I hope they do better in future. Originally Posted by Icon Calculators are not for maths, they are for arithmetic. Mate, how long has it been since you 've done serious maths? Calculators can do advanced Calculus stuff these days!!! There some online ones, have a look here Calculus Calculators Originally Posted by Icon Real maths takes skills and concentration. Undoubtedly! Originally Posted by Icon But back to chess ... Why do you think so many people (but not enough yet) are Fischer Random fans? To avoid bookish variations not necessarily prepared with computer help though. Personally, I love that variant and it's the only one I would play! I played in one tournament at Box Hill Chess Club 2-3 years ago and had great time. I will tell Grant Szuveges to have it in mind to organise something at the Melbourne Chess Club!

09-12-2010, 11:58 AM	#57 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by JaK Hi Alex, I don't know why you 're asking me all this, perhaps you should read this again starting a few posts back! Hi Jak It seems you've either misquoted or you believe Kevin's nonsense that most members on OzChess are really my hydra's. Either way I'm not bothered. I'm past the point of trying to convince people, and even more than that, I am past the point of caring. Yes, Bill is correct, we use a mod to adjust stats on the homepage, and sometimes users are selected randomly and included in those stats. But that doesn't mean those selected are hydra's. __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

09-12-2010, 01:23 PM	#58 (permalink)
JaK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 391	Originally Posted by Comeback Kid Hi Jak It seems you've either misquoted or you believe Kevin's nonsense that most members on OzChess are really my hydra's. Either way I'm not bothered. I'm past the point of trying to convince people, and even more than that, I am past the point of caring. Yes, Bill is correct, we use a mod to adjust stats on the homepage, and sometimes users are selected randomly and included in those stats. But that doesn't mean those selected are hydra's. Hi Alex, It was definitely the former case! Apologies to you and Simon! Misquotation owed to the fact that I was reading your earlier note on BHCC's prediction of Laurence's winning the tournament; additionally (as I am sure you 've noticed) the above was posted very early in this morning before I went fishing - early hour after a long night out adding to the confusion. In conclusion, I also believe that you must have noticed that I am a very direct person when I address others in the forums. I hope this clarifies things, if further explanation is needed please let me know! Cheers

09-12-2010, 01:30 PM	#59 (permalink)
Bill Gletsos Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 653	Originally Posted by Comeback Kid It seems you've either misquoted or you believe Kevin's nonsense that most members on OzChess are really my hydra's. Either way I'm not bothered. I'm past the point of trying to convince people, and even more than that, I am past the point of caring. Unfortunately you are not past the point of using hydras. Originally Posted by Comeback Kid Yes, Bill is correct, we use a mod to adjust stats on the homepage, and sometimes users are selected randomly and included in those stats. Yes you are currently misrepresenting the actual number of online users via your "fake user" modification by showing an additional 11 members and 50 guests who are actually not online at all. Originally Posted by Comeback Kid But that doesn't mean those selected are hydra's. True it does not mean they are all hydras but given the additional 11 names are randomly selected by your "fake user" modification then some of those selected could be hydras.

09-12-2010, 01:50 PM	#60 (permalink)
Admin Administrator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 34	Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos Unfortunately you are not past the point of using hydras. Yes you are currently misrepresenting the actual number of online users via your "fake user" modification by showing an additional 11 members and 50 guests who are actually not online at all. True it does not mean they are all hydras but given the additional 11 names are randomly selected by your "fake user" modification then some of those selected could be hydras. Bill, go jump in a lake. I don't have to justify myself to you. Spoiler for For Bill Gletsos:

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