ACF and Dejan Antic - OzChess

**Iconoclast** · 11-04-2007, 10:06 PM

GM Ian Rogers says:

Earlier in October Antic had heard that his application for permanent residency had been rejected on the grounds that his Grandmaster title "cannot be considered comparable to three years post secondary (Year 12) study."

The VetAssess bureaucrat who made this decision was clearly unaware or unconcerned that the Migration Review Tribunal had already ruled that the lesser International Master title was equivalent to at least five years tertiary study, and that the average time required for a player to go from International Master to Grandmaster - if indeed the GM level is ever reached - is an additional seven years of study, far more intensive study than that required for a basic tertiary degree.

Link to TCG

Then an insightful Wollongong bloke says:

Maxwell843 said...
Isn't the real problem for GM Dejan Antic that chess is not recognised as an offical sport in Australia and therefore he can't be acknowledged as a coach or even as a professional sportsman.

Shouldn't the chess community be trying to champion his cause for residence/ citizenship through petitions, etc. ?!

Well I would like to start the ball rolling. Post here with you pledge to sign a petition to embarrass the ACF into doing the right thing.

**Spiny Norman** · 11-05-2007, 06:46 AM

I'd be prepared to do whatever I can to help Dejan. I've got some contacts in the federal government if that helps (but we'd better be quick, as they might not be very useful contacts in 3 weeks time).

**Slav** · 11-05-2007, 11:52 AM

Outragous!! A GM is clearly better than a bachelor of Arts

**WhiteElephant** · 11-05-2007, 12:05 PM

In terms of study time, I would say that it certainly takes longer to become a GM than to obtain a Bachelor or an Honours Degree, possibly even a Masters or Phd. But which is 'better'...well that is a completely different question

**Just2Good** · 11-05-2007, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

In terms of study time, I would say that it certainly takes longer to become a GM than to obtain a Bachelor or an Honours Degree, possibly even a Masters or Phd. But which is 'better'...well that is a completely different question

I cannot accept this notion. In fact, I would say that you could probably go from 1600 to GM in about one year if you have the financial resources and no time contrainsts.

Also, in terms of marketability there is no way a GM title is as valuable as any University degree. So in strict terms of dollars and cents, a degree comes out on top. Especially if its a specialized Bachelor degree like an LL.B or a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery.

AO

**WhiteElephant** · 11-05-2007, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I cannot accept this notion. In fact, I would say that you could probably go from 1600 to GM in about one year if you have the financial resources and no time contrainsts.

Hmmm.....has anyone ever done this?

Take the latest Azeri GMs - Radjabov, Mamedyarov, Gashimov, Guseinov & Mamedov. They attained their GM titles faster than anyone I can think of. They barely went to school and spent all their time studying chess. They had access to the best teachers in the world. And it took each of them them 3+ years to go from 2000 to GM.

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

Also, in terms of marketability there is no way a GM title is as valuable as any University degree. So in strict terms of dollars and cents, a degree comes out on top. Especially if its a specialized Bachelor degree like an LL.B or a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery.
AO

I would say that is the case in Australia. Perhaps not in some European countries.

**Just2Good** · 11-07-2007, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

Hmmm.....has anyone ever done this?

Take the latest Azeri GMs - Radjabov, Mamedyarov, Gashimov, Guseinov & Mamedov. They attained their GM titles faster than anyone I can think of. They barely went to school and spent all their time studying chess. They had access to the best teachers in the world. And it took each of them them 3+ years to go from 2000 to GM.

I don't think anyone has tried this WE. Lets look at GM Zuniga. He claimed to have only ever read one chess book before becoming a GM. I don't know how long it took him though, but implies that natural talent will be a factor in how long it takes to climb the peak.

AO

**KiD** · 11-09-2007, 07:17 PM

What about the below anonymous comment, also from TCG?

these weak grandmasters and international masters think they can come into this country and request residency, just because their strength is slightly better than the average australian chess playing strength.

they cannot tramp in here and use chess as an excuse. it does not enrich australian society - they offer nothing and end up living on the dole that our tax dollars pay for.

i say, get a proper education or continue being a chess bum roaming around the world or in your own poor country where you came from.

The comment's quite harsh, but I think it's also valid.

**Iconoclast** · 11-09-2007, 08:56 PM

Yes it is harsh but I do not agree with its general nastiness. More importantly, it is statistically wrong. Smart people do get jobs. Smart people from other cultures do enrich this cosmopolitan country. Antic gets my nod.

**WhiteElephant** · 11-09-2007, 09:09 PM

That quote is just plain wrong and shows that the person who said it is extremely ignorant.

**KiD** · 11-09-2007, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

That quote is just plain wrong and shows that the person who said it is extremely ignorant.

Have there been titled players admitted into Australia purely based on their chess qualifications before? And if so, how many can be considered economic contributors versus those who are economic liabilities (i.e. welfare dependents)?

Maybe Antic does not fall into the "bludgers" category, but maybe anon poster was just making a point based on some real examples s/he knows.

**WhiteElephant** · 11-09-2007, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by KiD

Have there been titled players admitted into Australia purely based on their chess qualifications before? And if so, how many can be considered economic contributors versus those who are economic liabilities (i.e. welfare dependents)?

Maybe Antic does not fall into the "bludgers" category, but maybe anon poster was just making a point based on some real examples s/he knows.

If so, then it would have helped anon poster's argument to actually provide an example. At least one would have been nice.

But instead we got:
i say, get a proper education or continue being a chess bum roaming around the world or in your own poor country where you came from.

That is rude and offensive in the extreme.

**KiD** · 11-09-2007, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

But instead we got:
i say, get a proper education or continue being a chess bum roaming around the world or in your own poor country where you came from.

That is rude and offensive in the extreme.

I agree that the message delivery is extremely rude and offensive, but I believe the actual message is quite valid.

Purely based on the TCG post, I'm assuming that Antic applied as an independent skilled migrant. In doing so, he is claiming that he will be an economic benefit to Australia. How so?

**WhiteElephant** · 11-09-2007, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by KiD

I'm assuming that Antic applied as an independent skilled migrant. In doing so, he is claiming that he will be an economic benefit to Australia. How so?

I don't know, what is his profession?

I assume he could find plenty of employment as a chess coach if he so chose.

**KiD** · 11-09-2007, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteElephant

I don't know, what is his profession?

Uhm...professional chess player perhaps? Maybe I'm wrong, but considering that he tried to pass up his GM title as a Year 12 equivalent, then he probably has got nothing better (in terms of academic qualification, that is) to show?

I assume he could find plenty of employment as a chess coach if he so chose.

I'd assume so too, but if it were that easy, why didn't he just get one of these chess coaching companies to sponsor him, instead of applying as an independent?

11-04-2007, 10:06 PM	#1 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	ACF and Dejan Antic GM Ian Rogers says: Earlier in October Antic had heard that his application for permanent residency had been rejected on the grounds that his Grandmaster title "cannot be considered comparable to three years post secondary (Year 12) study." The VetAssess bureaucrat who made this decision was clearly unaware or unconcerned that the Migration Review Tribunal had already ruled that the lesser International Master title was equivalent to at least five years tertiary study, and that the average time required for a player to go from International Master to Grandmaster - if indeed the GM level is ever reached - is an additional seven years of study, far more intensive study than that required for a basic tertiary degree. Link to TCG Then an insightful Wollongong bloke says: Maxwell843 said... Isn't the real problem for GM Dejan Antic that chess is not recognised as an offical sport in Australia and therefore he can't be acknowledged as a coach or even as a professional sportsman. Shouldn't the chess community be trying to champion his cause for residence/ citizenship through petitions, etc. ?! Well I would like to start the ball rolling. Post here with you pledge to sign a petition to embarrass the ACF into doing the right thing. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-05-2007, 11:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
Slav Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 28	Outragous!! A GM is clearly better than a bachelor of Arts __________________ Touch that Q-pawn at your own risk!

11-05-2007, 08:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	GM Title Better than a Degree? Originally Posted by WhiteElephant In terms of study time, I would say that it certainly takes longer to become a GM than to obtain a Bachelor or an Honours Degree, possibly even a Masters or Phd. But which is 'better'...well that is a completely different question I cannot accept this notion. In fact, I would say that you could probably go from 1600 to GM in about one year if you have the financial resources and no time contrainsts. Also, in terms of marketability there is no way a GM title is as valuable as any University degree. So in strict terms of dollars and cents, a degree comes out on top. Especially if its a specialized Bachelor degree like an LL.B or a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery. AO __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

11-05-2007, 11:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I cannot accept this notion. In fact, I would say that you could probably go from 1600 to GM in about one year if you have the financial resources and no time contrainsts. Hmmm.....has anyone ever done this? Take the latest Azeri GMs - Radjabov, Mamedyarov, Gashimov, Guseinov & Mamedov. They attained their GM titles faster than anyone I can think of. They barely went to school and spent all their time studying chess. They had access to the best teachers in the world. And it took each of them them 3+ years to go from 2000 to GM. Originally Posted by Arrogant-One Also, in terms of marketability there is no way a GM title is as valuable as any University degree. So in strict terms of dollars and cents, a degree comes out on top. Especially if its a specialized Bachelor degree like an LL.B or a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery. AO I would say that is the case in Australia. Perhaps not in some European countries.

11-07-2007, 04:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	GM Zuniga Originally Posted by WhiteElephant Hmmm.....has anyone ever done this? Take the latest Azeri GMs - Radjabov, Mamedyarov, Gashimov, Guseinov & Mamedov. They attained their GM titles faster than anyone I can think of. They barely went to school and spent all their time studying chess. They had access to the best teachers in the world. And it took each of them them 3+ years to go from 2000 to GM. I don't think anyone has tried this WE. Lets look at GM Zuniga. He claimed to have only ever read one chess book before becoming a GM. I don't know how long it took him though, but implies that natural talent will be a factor in how long it takes to climb the peak. AO __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

11-05-2007, 06:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
Spiny Norman Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 224	I'd be prepared to do whatever I can to help Dejan. I've got some contacts in the federal government if that helps (but we'd better be quick, as they might not be very useful contacts in 3 weeks time).

11-05-2007, 12:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	In terms of study time, I would say that it certainly takes longer to become a GM than to obtain a Bachelor or an Honours Degree, possibly even a Masters or Phd. But which is 'better'...well that is a completely different question

11-09-2007, 07:17 PM	#8 (permalink)
KiD Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 84	What about the below anonymous comment, also from TCG? these weak grandmasters and international masters think they can come into this country and request residency, just because their strength is slightly better than the average australian chess playing strength. they cannot tramp in here and use chess as an excuse. it does not enrich australian society - they offer nothing and end up living on the dole that our tax dollars pay for. i say, get a proper education or continue being a chess bum roaming around the world or in your own poor country where you came from. The comment's quite harsh, but I think it's also valid.

11-09-2007, 08:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Yes it is harsh but I do not agree with its general nastiness. More importantly, it is statistically wrong. Smart people do get jobs. Smart people from other cultures do enrich this cosmopolitan country. Antic gets my nod. __________________ The individual is hopeless without the group. The group is hopeless without its individuals.

11-09-2007, 09:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	That quote is just plain wrong and shows that the person who said it is extremely ignorant.

11-09-2007, 09:55 PM	#11 (permalink)
KiD Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 84	Originally Posted by WhiteElephant That quote is just plain wrong and shows that the person who said it is extremely ignorant. Have there been titled players admitted into Australia purely based on their chess qualifications before? And if so, how many can be considered economic contributors versus those who are economic liabilities (i.e. welfare dependents)? Maybe Antic does not fall into the "bludgers" category, but maybe anon poster was just making a point based on some real examples s/he knows.

11-09-2007, 10:13 PM	#12 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	Originally Posted by KiD Have there been titled players admitted into Australia purely based on their chess qualifications before? And if so, how many can be considered economic contributors versus those who are economic liabilities (i.e. welfare dependents)? Maybe Antic does not fall into the "bludgers" category, but maybe anon poster was just making a point based on some real examples s/he knows. If so, then it would have helped anon poster's argument to actually provide an example. At least one would have been nice. But instead we got: i say, get a proper education or continue being a chess bum roaming around the world or in your own poor country where you came from. That is rude and offensive in the extreme.

11-09-2007, 10:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
KiD Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 84	Originally Posted by WhiteElephant But instead we got: i say, get a proper education or continue being a chess bum roaming around the world or in your own poor country where you came from. That is rude and offensive in the extreme. I agree that the message delivery is extremely rude and offensive, but I believe the actual message is quite valid. Purely based on the TCG post, I'm assuming that Antic applied as an independent skilled migrant. In doing so, he is claiming that he will be an economic benefit to Australia. How so?

11-09-2007, 10:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
WhiteElephant Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 98	Originally Posted by KiD I'm assuming that Antic applied as an independent skilled migrant. In doing so, he is claiming that he will be an economic benefit to Australia. How so? I don't know, what is his profession? I assume he could find plenty of employment as a chess coach if he so chose.

11-09-2007, 11:08 PM	#15 (permalink)
KiD Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 84	Originally Posted by WhiteElephant I don't know, what is his profession? Uhm...professional chess player perhaps? Maybe I'm wrong, but considering that he tried to pass up his GM title as a Year 12 equivalent, then he probably has got nothing better (in terms of academic qualification, that is) to show? I assume he could find plenty of employment as a chess coach if he so chose. I'd assume so too, but if it were that easy, why didn't he just get one of these chess coaching companies to sponsor him, instead of applying as an independent?

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