Bill Gletsos COI - Page 3 - OzChess

**Iconoclast** · 07-29-2007, 01:31 PM

The NSWCA minutes are practically secret. They are not published and will not be sent to anyone. The NSWCA abides by the law by making them available if and only if you can arrange to meet an officer at a time and place of their convenience. eg. 7:30pm Wednesday in some outer suburb. Even then you may only view them - no copies allowed. Bad luck if you live 1000 km from Sydney; bad luck if you work Wednesday arvos; bad luck for the fee paying members of the NSWCA who just want to know WTF is going on.

With disgraceful secracy and information blackouts, is the way the Bill Gletsos run NSWCA rule the roost. :mad:

E-

R-E-T-S. Secrets about how the NSCWA has been losing $1000 a month. Secrets about how it might help NSW clubs bid for the 2008AC. Secrets about how certian players get their games rated free of charge. Secrets about why we do not have a chess centre in a first world city of 5 million people.

E-

R-E-T-S.

07-30-2007, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

I don't know who iconoclast is, but will state the obvious just to set the record straight.

What kind of board is this where unknown and anonymous users can be moderators?

**MOZ** · 07-30-2007, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pax

What kind of board is this where unknown and anonymous users can be moderators?

I guess it might be similar to the ACCF board where moderators from ********'s board helped out by minute scrutiny and report to ezboard-legal.
Sort of, everyone pitches in to help the embryonic.

**Just2Good** · 07-31-2007, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Pax

What kind of board is this where unknown and anonymous users can be moderators?

Hello Pax

If a poster is unknown to me, they would not be allowed to be moderators on this board. I haven't spent the money getting this board up and running just to let some yahoo run wild on it. Hope that answers your question.

Sincerely,

AO

**Spiny Norman** · 07-31-2007, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Zeitgiest

The difficulty for those who live in the country is that the documentation does not seem to find its way onto the State web-site.

The CV website is "created by amateurs for amateurs" according to those in the know. Whilst we do appreciate their efforts, the idea that the amateurs might ask professionals in the website development field for assistance seems not to have taken root anywhere, which is a shame. It takes just as long to put together a dodgy, hard to navigate site as it does to put together a professional looking site.

In respect of publishing minutes of executive meetings, unless there is a membership management system controlling access to the website, then I wouldn't recommend publishing minutes and accounts on the CV website. To do so would make it publicly accessible, which isn't necessary, nor advisable.

What could be done however is to put together a mailing list for, as an example, all the club presidents of clubs affiliated with CV. That wouldn't take more than 15 minutes for someone to organise, and then the minutes could be distributed to the clubs (n.b. it is clubs who are the members of the association in VIC, not individuals, with the exception of certain life members).

If I get time, perhaps I will write to the CV Executive and put this to them as a proposal for the next AGM.

**MOZ** · 07-31-2007, 11:26 AM

^
Ooh Frosty
An near-edgy point in your first sentence.
But you totally recover and end in the positives with the rest of your excellent advice.
So erudite is your exposition that I am moved to suggest you consider the CV Pres. job in 2008, and then you can save yourself the trouble of writing the letter.

warm regards
MOZ

**Just2Good** · 07-31-2007, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by MOZ

^
Ooh Frosty
An near-edgy point in your first sentence.
But you totally recover and end in the positives with the rest of your excellent advice.
So erudite is your exposition that I am moved to suggest you consider the CV Pres. job in 2008, and then you can save yourself the trouble of writing the letter.

warm regards
MOZ

Indeed,

I think frosty would make a good CV President.

AO

**Spiny Norman** · 07-31-2007, 03:50 PM

It was a bit close to the edge wasn't it ... but I guess it serves to demonstrate my overly emotional nature, which is clearly not suited to a presidential role.

**Brian_Jones** · 07-31-2007, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by frosty

It was a bit close to the edge wasn't it ... but I guess it serves to demonstrate my overly emotional nature, which is clearly not suited to a presidential role.

I beg to differ - the first attribute required for a Presidential role is to recognise one's own strengths and weaknesses. An emotional nature is good!

**Watto** · 08-17-2007, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by van Riel

The Chess Victoria minutes and accounts are published and handed around at the public annual general meeting. The difficulty for those who live in the country is that the documentation does not seem to find its way onto the State web-site.

Just thought I'd mention that this 'van Riel' is not Bas van Riel. I just assumed it was Bas but he's not a member of this forum.

**Iconoclast** · 08-22-2007, 12:19 AM

Here is the most duplicitous load of cods wollop I have ever heard come out of a supposedly competant lawyer. In regard to Gletsos' COI, Denis Jessop, former ACF President states,

It was made clear to the ACF Council that the NSWCA had no relevant interest in the outcome of either of the two bids from NSW. It "endorsed" each of the bids but did not "support" either. Thus Bill has no interest that can give rise to a conflict by reason of his being NSWCA President. Nor, I believe, did he have any personal interest in any of the bids before the ACF Council. In note that there is no allegation that he had any such personal interest.

This is deliberate deception by omission. Gletsos knew the details of the convieniently unmentioned third bid from a rival state body, Chess Victoria, before the NSW based bids were submitted. A clear COI.

And they wonder why normal people spell "lawyer" l-i-a-r.
[EDIT 8pm 23-08-07: It has been brought to my attention that like gonorrhea, lawyers are everywhere - including here! - and that even lawyers have feelings. Hard to imagine, but true. Although lawyers are usually lumped in with used car salesmen and policians, there are some who are not liars. Hard to image, but true. I recognition of that, I appologise to the good ones. Hard to imagine, but true.

]

**Just2Good** · 08-22-2007, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Here is the most duplicitous load of cods wollop I have ever heard come out of a supposedly competant lawyer. In regard to Gletsos' COI, Denis Jessop, former ACF President states,

This is deliberate deception by omission. Gletsos knew the details of the convieniently unmentioned third bid from a rival state body, Chess Victoria, before the NSW based bids were submitted. A clear COI.

And they wonder why normal people spell "lawyer" l-i-a-r.

Hi Iconoclast

I think you need to present your argument assuming that the reader does not already know the previous history to this matter. If you are claiming, as it seems, that Bill Gletsos had a conflict of interest then you need to clearly explain how it arose.

**Iconoclast** · 08-23-2007, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Arrogant-One

If you are claiming, as it seems, that Bill Gletsos had a conflict of interest then you need to clearly explain how it arose.

Gletsos (as an ACF office holder) knew the details of the bid from a rival state body, Chess Victoria.

Gletsos (as the NSWCA President) those CV bid details before the NSW based bids were submitted.

Gletsos is a fellow Council member with one of the main NSW bidders.

Gletsos (supposedly!) holds an interest in outcomes for NSW chess players

When Gletsos is in receipt of sensitive information or in a position to influence ACF discussions surrounding matters that effect both the NSW and the ACF, there is a clear COI.

He should resign from one body or the other.

**Iconoclast** · 08-25-2007, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Denis Jessop @ Gulag CC

Before we even get to any answers it should be noted that the questions "clarify" that you (and Matthew Sweeney who is posting elsewhere in a similar vein) have no concept of what constitutes a conflict of interest in this matter.

The legal definitions and the pubic understanding of what a COI may be may not be in perfect alignment. Nevertheless, in the same way normal people cannot define exactly what is "obscene," but they know it when they see it, we all know what a conflict of interest looks like. You, Denis, and Bill, can stick your concept of what constitutes a COI. Evryone out here in WallyWorld knows that you cannot serve be a director/admin in corporations that have potential conflicting ends without there being a conflict as to whaty to say/do/vote.

To ask you a question: What interest do you think that Bill has that can give rise to a conflict given that the NSWCA has made it clear that it has no relevant interest in the matter and Bill has no personal interest in it? And another: Do you even understand the meaning of "interest" in case such as this?

I know what I understand as having an "interest." If Bill is the NSWCA President he must have an interest in doing the right think for NSW chess players. If he is serving on the ACF, he must have an interest in Australian (all) chess players. The two "interests" cannot be exactly the same at all times. Therefore, there is the oppertunity for a COI to arise. The insurmountable problem is that even when Bill does not vote on XYZ he still exerts a strong influence on debate.

I should mention that Sweeney made a post in another place the other day on this matter (clearly actionable for defamation by both Bill and me were we willing to waste time on him and the BB owner) that revealed that he did not have the slightest idea of the concept of conflict of interest. He has made a further post that reinforces that.

As a lawyer, Denis, you have an obligation to inform non-lawyers of a problem, when you observe it. That is called acting like a professional. Therefore, Denis, give us all a lesson on COI - or would you prefer to snear at us from lofty heights.

His continuing this line reveals a malevolence that outstrips his intelligence - not difficult, mind you.

"Not difficult" [?] Clearly you have chosen to assess my malevolence as being beyond infinite, which as you know is difficult to the point of impossibility.

BTW, when so many CC posters are joining here to post their observations, while you choose not to do so, you show us all that Chess Chat is the defacto ACF domain. How every embarrassing for Australian chess to have the ACF-CC as the largest online communty.

**Just2Good** · 08-26-2007, 07:18 PM

Matt,

I am still not swayed that Bill had a Conflict of Interest here.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Gletsos (as an ACF office holder) knew the details of the bid from a rival state body, Chess Victoria.

Its likely that every other ACF councillor did as well.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Gletsos (as the NSWCA President) those CV bid details before the NSW based bids were submitted.

Presumably, again, so did every other ACF councillor. The timing of the bids is immaterial, so long as they all came in before the tender period expired. Perhaps there may have been a slight strategic advantage in Chess Victoria submitting their bid after the other ones had come in, but no one can say for sure that being the first to submit their bid disadvantaged them.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Gletsos is a fellow Council member with one of the main NSW bidders.

Okay, you're getting closer. However, being on the NSWCA and being in the ACF at the same time doesn't automatically give rise to a conflict of interest. If they were mates, then maybe. If they are only colleagues, then no conflict has arisen.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Gletsos (supposedly!) holds an interest in outcomes for NSW chess players

How? And how has NSW benefitted from scoring the winning bid? The last 2 Aus Championships have been flops. The winning Qld bid the year before last, under then CAQ President Howard Duggan, cost the CAQ a lot of money - the effects of which it is still recovering from. The Canberra one also most likely lost money as numbers were far below projections.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

When Gletsos is in receipt of sensitive information or in a position to influence ACF discussions surrounding matters that effect both the NSW and the ACF, there is a clear COI.

There is always going to be some overlap with at least a few of the same individuals holding both state chess association positions and ACF positions. Thats just the nature of the beast.

If it is your argument that Gletsos should have recused himself because he would be more partial to the NSW bids than the CV bid, then that blanket would have to apply to all NSWCA councillors who sit on the ACF - as well as all Chess Victoria councillors who sit on the ACF.

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

He should resign from one body or the other.

Agreed, he should perhaps make room for some new blood by removing himself from one role or the other. Stagnation is a dangerous thing sometimes, and the entire Chess community seems to be clamouring for change, even if they are doing so quietly and politely.

07-29-2007, 01:31 PM	#31 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	The NSWCA minutes are practically secret. They are not published and will not be sent to anyone. The NSWCA abides by the law by making them available if and only if you can arrange to meet an officer at a time and place of their convenience. eg. 7:30pm Wednesday in some outer suburb. Even then you may only view them - no copies allowed. Bad luck if you live 1000 km from Sydney; bad luck if you work Wednesday arvos; bad luck for the fee paying members of the NSWCA who just want to know WTF is going on. With disgraceful secracy and information blackouts, is the way the Bill Gletsos run NSWCA rule the roost. :mad: E-R-E-T-S. Secrets about how the NSCWA has been losing $1000 a month. Secrets about how it might help NSW clubs bid for the 2008AC. Secrets about how certian players get their games rated free of charge. Secrets about why we do not have a chess centre in a first world city of 5 million people. E-R-E-T-S.

07-30-2007, 04:56 PM	#32 (permalink)
Pax Posts: n/a	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One I don't know who iconoclast is, but will state the obvious just to set the record straight. What kind of board is this where unknown and anonymous users can be moderators?

07-30-2007, 06:17 PM	#33 (permalink)
MOZ Volunteer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ozchess is the marginalised cyber-spot where cc-Mods choose to engage with cc-banned posters. Posts: 3,495	Originally Posted by Pax What kind of board is this where unknown and anonymous users can be moderators? I guess it might be similar to the ACCF board where moderators from ********'s board helped out by minute scrutiny and report to ezboard-legal. Sort of, everyone pitches in to help the embryonic.

07-31-2007, 09:57 AM	#34 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Pax What kind of board is this where unknown and anonymous users can be moderators? Hello Pax If a poster is unknown to me, they would not be allowed to be moderators on this board. I haven't spent the money getting this board up and running just to let some yahoo run wild on it. Hope that answers your question. Sincerely, AO

07-31-2007, 10:10 AM	#35 (permalink)
Spiny Norman Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 224	Good communication Originally Posted by Zeitgiest The difficulty for those who live in the country is that the documentation does not seem to find its way onto the State web-site. The CV website is "created by amateurs for amateurs" according to those in the know. Whilst we do appreciate their efforts, the idea that the amateurs might ask professionals in the website development field for assistance seems not to have taken root anywhere, which is a shame. It takes just as long to put together a dodgy, hard to navigate site as it does to put together a professional looking site. In respect of publishing minutes of executive meetings, unless there is a membership management system controlling access to the website, then I wouldn't recommend publishing minutes and accounts on the CV website. To do so would make it publicly accessible, which isn't necessary, nor advisable. What could be done however is to put together a mailing list for, as an example, all the club presidents of clubs affiliated with CV. That wouldn't take more than 15 minutes for someone to organise, and then the minutes could be distributed to the clubs (n.b. it is clubs who are the members of the association in VIC, not individuals, with the exception of certain life members). If I get time, perhaps I will write to the CV Executive and put this to them as a proposal for the next AGM.

07-31-2007, 11:26 AM	#36 (permalink)
MOZ Volunteer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ozchess is the marginalised cyber-spot where cc-Mods choose to engage with cc-banned posters. Posts: 3,495	^ Ooh Frosty An near-edgy point in your first sentence. But you totally recover and end in the positives with the rest of your excellent advice. So erudite is your exposition that I am moved to suggest you consider the CV Pres. job in 2008, and then you can save yourself the trouble of writing the letter. warm regards MOZ

07-31-2007, 03:43 PM	#37 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by MOZ ^ Ooh Frosty An near-edgy point in your first sentence. But you totally recover and end in the positives with the rest of your excellent advice. So erudite is your exposition that I am moved to suggest you consider the CV Pres. job in 2008, and then you can save yourself the trouble of writing the letter. warm regards MOZ Indeed, I think frosty would make a good CV President. AO

07-31-2007, 03:50 PM	#38 (permalink)
Spiny Norman Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 224	It was a bit close to the edge wasn't it ... but I guess it serves to demonstrate my overly emotional nature, which is clearly not suited to a presidential role.

07-31-2007, 05:47 PM	#39 (permalink)
Brian_Jones Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 77	Originally Posted by frosty It was a bit close to the edge wasn't it ... but I guess it serves to demonstrate my overly emotional nature, which is clearly not suited to a presidential role. I beg to differ - the first attribute required for a Presidential role is to recognise one's own strengths and weaknesses. An emotional nature is good!

08-17-2007, 10:39 AM	#40 (permalink)
Watto Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 45	Originally Posted by van Riel The Chess Victoria minutes and accounts are published and handed around at the public annual general meeting. The difficulty for those who live in the country is that the documentation does not seem to find its way onto the State web-site. Just thought I'd mention that this 'van Riel' is not Bas van Riel. I just assumed it was Bas but he's not a member of this forum.

08-22-2007, 12:19 AM	#41 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Here is the most duplicitous load of cods wollop I have ever heard come out of a supposedly competant lawyer. In regard to Gletsos' COI, Denis Jessop, former ACF President states, It was made clear to the ACF Council that the NSWCA had no relevant interest in the outcome of either of the two bids from NSW. It "endorsed" each of the bids but did not "support" either. Thus Bill has no interest that can give rise to a conflict by reason of his being NSWCA President. Nor, I believe, did he have any personal interest in any of the bids before the ACF Council. In note that there is no allegation that he had any such personal interest. This is deliberate deception by omission. Gletsos knew the details of the convieniently unmentioned third bid from a rival state body, Chess Victoria, before the NSW based bids were submitted. A clear COI. And they wonder why normal people spell "lawyer" l-i-a-r. [EDIT 8pm 23-08-07: It has been brought to my attention that like gonorrhea, lawyers are everywhere - including here! - and that even lawyers have feelings. Hard to imagine, but true. Although lawyers are usually lumped in with used car salesmen and policians, there are some who are not liars. Hard to image, but true. I recognition of that, I appologise to the good ones. Hard to imagine, but true. ]

08-22-2007, 10:31 PM	#42 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	Originally Posted by Iconoclast Here is the most duplicitous load of cods wollop I have ever heard come out of a supposedly competant lawyer. In regard to Gletsos' COI, Denis Jessop, former ACF President states, This is deliberate deception by omission. Gletsos knew the details of the convieniently unmentioned third bid from a rival state body, Chess Victoria, before the NSW based bids were submitted. A clear COI. And they wonder why normal people spell "lawyer" l-i-a-r. Hi Iconoclast I think you need to present your argument assuming that the reader does not already know the previous history to this matter. If you are claiming, as it seems, that Bill Gletsos had a conflict of interest then you need to clearly explain how it arose. __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

08-23-2007, 09:16 PM	#43 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Arrogant-One If you are claiming, as it seems, that Bill Gletsos had a conflict of interest then you need to clearly explain how it arose. Gletsos (as an ACF office holder) knew the details of the bid from a rival state body, Chess Victoria. Gletsos (as the NSWCA President) those CV bid details before the NSW based bids were submitted. Gletsos is a fellow Council member with one of the main NSW bidders. Gletsos (supposedly!) holds an interest in outcomes for NSW chess players When Gletsos is in receipt of sensitive information or in a position to influence ACF discussions surrounding matters that effect both the NSW and the ACF, there is a clear COI. He should resign from one body or the other.

08-25-2007, 02:21 PM	#44 (permalink)
Iconoclast Immoderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wollongong NSW Posts: 2,302	Originally Posted by Denis Jessop @ Gulag CC Before we even get to any answers it should be noted that the questions "clarify" that you (and Matthew Sweeney who is posting elsewhere in a similar vein) have no concept of what constitutes a conflict of interest in this matter. The legal definitions and the pubic understanding of what a COI may be may not be in perfect alignment. Nevertheless, in the same way normal people cannot define exactly what is "obscene," but they know it when they see it, we all know what a conflict of interest looks like. You, Denis, and Bill, can stick your concept of what constitutes a COI. Evryone out here in WallyWorld knows that you cannot serve be a director/admin in corporations that have potential conflicting ends without there being a conflict as to whaty to say/do/vote. To ask you a question: What interest do you think that Bill has that can give rise to a conflict given that the NSWCA has made it clear that it has no relevant interest in the matter and Bill has no personal interest in it? And another: Do you even understand the meaning of "interest" in case such as this? I know what I understand as having an "interest." If Bill is the NSWCA President he must have an interest in doing the right think for NSW chess players. If he is serving on the ACF, he must have an interest in Australian (all) chess players. The two "interests" cannot be exactly the same at all times. Therefore, there is the oppertunity for a COI to arise. The insurmountable problem is that even when Bill does not vote on XYZ he still exerts a strong influence on debate. I should mention that Sweeney made a post in another place the other day on this matter (clearly actionable for defamation by both Bill and me were we willing to waste time on him and the BB owner) that revealed that he did not have the slightest idea of the concept of conflict of interest. He has made a further post that reinforces that. As a lawyer, Denis, you have an obligation to inform non-lawyers of a problem, when you observe it. That is called acting like a professional. Therefore, Denis, give us all a lesson on COI - or would you prefer to snear at us from lofty heights. His continuing this line reveals a malevolence that outstrips his intelligence - not difficult, mind you. "Not difficult" [?] Clearly you have chosen to assess my malevolence as being beyond infinite, which as you know is difficult to the point of impossibility. BTW, when so many CC posters are joining here to post their observations, while you choose not to do so, you show us all that Chess Chat is the defacto ACF domain. How every embarrassing for Australian chess to have the ACF-CC as the largest online communty.

08-26-2007, 07:18 PM	#45 (permalink)
Just2Good Tin Cup Champ 2004 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cairns Posts: 6,056 ICC Handle: Advantage FICS Handle: Advantage	No smoking gun here Matt, I am still not swayed that Bill had a Conflict of Interest here. Originally Posted by Iconoclast Gletsos (as an ACF office holder) knew the details of the bid from a rival state body, Chess Victoria. Its likely that every other ACF councillor did as well. Originally Posted by Iconoclast Gletsos (as the NSWCA President) those CV bid details before the NSW based bids were submitted. Presumably, again, so did every other ACF councillor. The timing of the bids is immaterial, so long as they all came in before the tender period expired. Perhaps there may have been a slight strategic advantage in Chess Victoria submitting their bid after the other ones had come in, but no one can say for sure that being the first to submit their bid disadvantaged them. Originally Posted by Iconoclast Gletsos is a fellow Council member with one of the main NSW bidders. Okay, you're getting closer. However, being on the NSWCA and being in the ACF at the same time doesn't automatically give rise to a conflict of interest. If they were mates, then maybe. If they are only colleagues, then no conflict has arisen. Originally Posted by Iconoclast Gletsos (supposedly!) holds an interest in outcomes for NSW chess players How? And how has NSW benefitted from scoring the winning bid? The last 2 Aus Championships have been flops. The winning Qld bid the year before last, under then CAQ President Howard Duggan, cost the CAQ a lot of money - the effects of which it is still recovering from. The Canberra one also most likely lost money as numbers were far below projections. Originally Posted by Iconoclast When Gletsos is in receipt of sensitive information or in a position to influence ACF discussions surrounding matters that effect both the NSW and the ACF, there is a clear COI. There is always going to be some overlap with at least a few of the same individuals holding both state chess association positions and ACF positions. Thats just the nature of the beast. If it is your argument that Gletsos should have recused himself because he would be more partial to the NSW bids than the CV bid, then that blanket would have to apply to all NSWCA councillors who sit on the ACF - as well as all Chess Victoria councillors who sit on the ACF. Originally Posted by Iconoclast He should resign from one body or the other. Agreed, he should perhaps make room for some new blood by removing himself from one role or the other. Stagnation is a dangerous thing sometimes, and the entire Chess community seems to be clamouring for change, even if they are doing so quietly and politely. __________________ . "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." ~ Buckminster Fuller ~

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